Small Appliance circuits

[imported_marako]

OK, I thought I had this concept straight, but recently I'm begining to wonder a bit.

NEC requires at least 2 small app circuits. I've always considered these to be the circuits that feed the counters, but a recent re-reading of the NEC shows that it can include dining rooms, pantrys, breaksfast areas, etc. So what IS required to be considered a small app circuit, and what MAY be required a small app circuit?

Here is an example to help along:
I have a kitchen that there are 3 circuits run that feed ONLY the counters in that kitchen. I would call this 3 small app circuits, and feel I've "meet" code. There is a fourth circuit that feeds the reamaining wall outlets in the kitchen only (by the table) including the fridge and stove. Is this a general lighting circuit (meaning I can tap other stuff off it) or MUST it be considered a fourth small app circuit? The lights are on a seprate general lighting circuit.

Now lets move to the dinning room. I have two circuits that feed the dining room. One feeds 1/2 of the outlets (duplex 1,3,5, etc), the dining room light, and an exterior motion sensor light. The second circuit feeds the other 1/2 of the outlets (duplex 2,4,6,..) and feeds a light that will be in or near the pantry closet (i.e. a closet outside the kitchen to hold kitchen/food stuff. MUST the two dinning room circuits be considered small app circuits, or can they be considered general lighting circuits since there are already 3 (or 4) small app circuits in the kitchen?

[Wgoodrich]

YOU SAID;
I have a kitchen that there are 3 circuits run that feed ONLY the counters in that kitchen. I would call this 3 small app circuits, and feel I've "meet" code. There is a fourth circuit that feeds the reamaining wall outlets in the kitchen only (by the table) including the fridge and stove. Is this a general lighting circuit (meaning I can tap other stuff off it) or MUST it be considered a fourth small app circuit? The lights are on a seprate general lighting circuit.

REPLY;
YOu may install as many small appliance branch circuits to serve your kitchen, nook, dining, or pantry as you like. However any branch circuit that serves a readily accessible receptacle in your kitchen, nook, dining, or pantry rooms MUST BE CONSIDERED AS A SMALL APPLIANCE BRANCH CIRCUIT. No lighitng, fixed appliances or anything in any other room is allowed on ANY branch circuit that serves ANY readily accessible receptacle in a kitchen, nook, dining, or pantry room. Exceptions do apply allowing a refrigerator, ignitor to a gas stove or clock receptacle to be served by a small appliance branch circuit. All small appliance branch circuits [any branch circuit serving any readily accessible receptacle in any of those rooms listed above] must be 20 amp 12 awg copper rated branch circuit. Then ANY readily accessible receptacle serving a counter in those rooms must also be GFI protected. Any receptcle serving in those rooms not serving a counter area does not have to be GFI protected.

YOU SAID;
Now lets move to the dinning room. I have two circuits that feed the dining room. One feeds 1/2 of the outlets (duplex 1,3,5, etc), the dining room light, and an exterior motion sensor light. The second circuit feeds the other 1/2 of the outlets (duplex 2,4,6,..) and feeds a light that will be in or near the pantry closet (i.e. a closet outside the kitchen to hold kitchen/food stuff. MUST the two dinning room circuits be considered small app circuits, or can they be considered general lighting circuits since there are already 3 (or 4) small app circuits in the kitchen?

REPLY;
I see no reason you would want to add more branch circuits in your dining room. You may serve both the kitchen and the dining or nook or pantry with the same small appliance branch circuits. Do your really think the cook of the house is going to cook in kitchen and dining at the same time. May happen but not likely. If you install a branch circuit that serves even one readily accessible receptcle in that dining room or kitchen or nook or pantry then NO LIGHTING, FASTENED IN PLACE APLIANCES AND NOTHING IN ANY OTHER ROOM IS ALLOWED ON THAT BRANCH CIRCUIT THAT BECAME A SMALL APPLIANCE BRANCH CIRCUIT THE SECOND YOU ATTACHED A READILY ACCESSIBLE RECEPTACLE ON THAT BRANCH CIRCUIT IN THAT DINING, KITCHEN, NOOK, OR PANTRY.

Hope this helps

Wg

[imported_marako]

WG,
Thanks for the help. As always you've cleared up the issue for me. To answer your question:

REPLY;
I see no reason you would want to add more branch circuits in your dining room. You may serve both the kitchen and the dining or nook or pantry with the same small appliance branch circuits. Do your really think the cook of the house is going to cook in kitchen and dining at the same time. May happen but not likely. If you install a branch circuit that serves even one readily accessible receptcle in that dining room or kitchen or nook or pantry then NO LIGHTING, FASTENED IN PLACE APLIANCES AND NOTHING IN ANY OTHER ROOM IS ALLOWED ON THAT BRANCH CIRCUIT THAT BECAME A SMALL APPLIANCE BRANCH CIRCUIT THE SECOND YOU ATTACHED A READILY ACCESSIBLE RECEPTACLE ON THAT BRANCH CIRCUIT IN THAT DINING, KITCHEN, NOOK, OR PANTRY.

I fully agree on the need for the small app circuits. When I first moved into my house if I turned on the microwave while my wife was using here hairdryer the circuit (15 amp at that) would trip in seconds. Forget about running the toaster oven and the microwave at the same time.

Here is the "problem" I have with the code here. I agree that its unlikely that someone is going to be "cooking" in the kitchen and the dinning room. However, it is not unlikely that there will be loads (large?) on the dining room circuit(s): coffe pots, warmers, window AC units, Xmas lights, etc. So why would I want to (or be allowed to???) combine these with the Kitchen's small app circuits? A normal kitchen today will have toaster overs, microwaves, coffe pots, fryers, etc all which may be on at anytime or the same time. These can an do draw alot of power.

So thats why I never put the fridge or other kitchen outlets on the same circuits with the counter tops.... too much possible draw on the counter top. I had learned (incorrectly) that the kitchen was the small app circuit. I see no real need to isolate a dining room so much. I'd say treating a dining room more like a bathroom (i.e. allowed a circuit to power the whole dinning room) makes more sense.

Well, thats my take on it. I don't write the code so I 'll just have to live with it.

Thanks again.

[Wgoodrich]

Remember the NEC is minimum safety standards. I like to see more circuits serving the kitchen, nook, dining pantry than just the two minimum 20 amp circuits required. What I like to see is the number of circuits you mentioned say 3 or 4 circuits serving the kitchen making a lighter load on anyone circuit then combine the dining, pantry or nook on those higher number of circuits serving in the kitchen. The high load is most often in the kitchen. If you are going ot run the extra circuits say to serve the dining room then run a couple of receptacles off that dining circuit over to the kitchen counter providing more power throughout especially the kitchen counter area known to be the biggy load area.

The lighting can be and is considered general lighitng run the dining, kitchen, nook pantry lights of living or den or even bedroom lighting circuit that keeps the lights from dimming from a heavy load of the small appliance branch circuits. This separation of lighting from small applince branch circuits is not the fear of the load of the lights but to address likelyhood of dimming if a toaster is turned on the same circuit as the lights.

If the window a/c is known and planned then it should be on its own single plug in receptacle circuit dedicated as the window a/c unit.

AS we discuss different views we produce ideas for better power to what we use everyday. Keep thinking, that is what makes us all better designers.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Wg