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Thread: Garage 2-Post Car Hoist and 220v Outlet Wiring Help

  1. #1

    Default Garage 2-Post Car Hoist and 220v Outlet Wiring Help

    Hello,

    Location – I live in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada so the Ontario building code applies.

    First off – I will be taking out a permit with the ESA prior to doing this work. I am looking at planning it all out in advance and to ensure that what I am proposing is actually legal and if not, then what is a viable alternative. If clarification is required, then please let me know. Fair warning, I am posting this identical question in 2 forums for now and ONLY 2 forums. The forums are: selfhelpforums and diychatroom.

    I am in the planning stage of mapping out my electrical wiring update for my car hoist. I would like to run wiring from the panel (double pole breaker) to a junction box in the garage attic (I have existing 8/3 and 10/3 wire that I want to use; however, I will need more). From the junction box, I plan on running the wire to the location above the hoist and passing the wiring through the ceiling, into some conduit, and then down to a kill switch. From the kill switch, I would like to go to a 110v Outlet, then a 220v Outlet, and finally hookup directly to the Hydraulic Motor. Please see first 2 images.

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    Purpose of 110v and 220v outlets? Well, first off, the 110v outlet would be for using random power tools or lights when working on a vehicle. The 220v outlets purpose would be for a MIG welder.

    Questions:

    1) Is this even allowed by code? To have a 110v and 220v outlet on the same wiring and then terminating with direct wiring to the hydraulic pump?

    2) Kill switch

    a. I was planning on using a 20A light switch as a kill switch; however, if I use a 30A or 40A breaker is that allowed? Or would I require something else? I plan on turning the circuit OFF unless I am using it.

    b. I am assuming that breaking the black connection that the 110v and 220v lines would both be severed?

    3) What wiring size is required for this setup? I have a run of 8/3 and 10/3 wiring. The 8/3 feeds into a 40 AMP double pole breaker while the 10/3 feeds into a 30 AMP double pole breaker. These were initially installed when the house was built for basement laundry / stove from what I can tell but never connected at the panel. I don’t mind purchasing a new breaker if needed. That is just what is existing and available.

    8/3 is stamped: …2003 NEXANS CSA LL23462 F NM090 XLPE 8/3 CANADEX 300V FT1

    10/3 is stamped: MAY/2003 NEXANS CSA LL23462 F NM090 XLPE 10/3 CANADEX 300V FT1

    Hydraulic motor:
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    MIG Welder:
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    4) Routing
    I plan on routing the wire from the panel, through the unfinished part of the basement, up along a 2x4 and into the attic above the garage. From there, I want to run the wire to the location above where I wish to drop it and then continue with conduit from the ceiling down. (Adding a junction box where necessary). How often do I need to secure the run?

    5) Conduit

    a. What type of conduit would I need / what size for the size of wire above?

    6) Another question, separate from the above questions, if I wish to wire up another, separate 220v outlet for a compressor and the MIG welder at the same time in a different location in the garage. What would be the minimum wire size for them if they were on the same circuit at the same time (ON at the same time), or separate (only 1 ever plugged in at one time).

    Compressor info:
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    Same MIG as listed above

    If you can answer any of my questions it would be appreciated!

    Thanks!

    Michael

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    Welland Ontario
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    You can NOT put general purpose 15 receptacles on a 30 or 40 amp circuit.

    220 volt uses two hot wires. To truly turn it off you need a double pole switch.

    Over all it is a bad plan. You should be running three separate circuits, one for hoist, one for MIG and one general purpose receptacles.
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  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Yes, you need multiple circuits. Combining any of these will be difficult because of code restrictions. The hoist says you need a 25A rated circuit with a 25A max breaker. So its a 10-2 circuit on a 25A double pole, no more and no less. Probably best to hard wire that (not cord and plug connected) The welder has a 20A nameplate, but welders can have special rules. You've got options for that if you want it cord and plug connected, but those outlets will be for welder use only if you undersize the wire (which is common on welder circuits). For the compressor, it has a 22A nameplate. I didn't see any further info for circuit ampacity or breaker size other than maybe the crazy nameplate that said 110A? I'd put that on another double pole 30A circuit with a 30A breaker. If the breaker won't hold, you can go higher. This should also be hard wired.

    And you still have no 120V circuits. For most people, a single 120V 20A circuit is enough. Put in two if you think you need that much.

    How many of these items could be used at once? If more than one, you're going to need a large feeder to a subpanel if you go that route. Is it easy to run more circuits to that garage from your main panel? Is the service to that panel large enough to handle these new loads? Running multiples separate circuits is better and easier if you can do it. Just buy a bunch of 10-2 cable to handle these 240V loads and some 12-2 for the 120V loads. Installing a panel adds more complications that you probably don't even know of yet, and if you can run a large 60A circuit for a subpanel, you could probably pull 3 10-2's and 2 12-2's along that same path.

    One final detail. Anything that is hard wired needs a disconnect. That could be a double pole wall switch (if suitable ampacity) or something like an air conditioner disconnect. These disconnects need to be in sight of the item being disconnected. I'd suggest HVAC disconnects for the compressor and car hoist, since they are heavy motor loads (and that's basically what an HVAC compressor is). I'd go for the 60A rated ones, as you typically need to go by horsepower and not amps. Why a "kill switch"? I've never found a good reason for these unless you're a school teaching people who make stupid mistakes. The disconnects serve the same purpose, but you'll just have more than one.
    Mark
    Kent, WA

  4. #4

    Default

    Thanks!

    The shop I bought it from had this set-up which was what got me thinking. I'll stay away and do dedicated circuits instead.

    As for the disconnect. I assume all of these would work?

    https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.6...000413342.html

    https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.6...000436970.html

    https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.6...000666001.html

    I'll pick up a 25A breaker.

    As for the wiring. Since I already have the 10/3 and 8/3. Is there an issue using this wire to the junction and then downsizing the wire after the junction to the 12/2? I don't think I'll ever need the 10/3 or 8/3 and I'd rather use it than purchase all new IF it is acceptable and safe to do so.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thanks,

    Michael

  5. #5
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    Welland Ontario
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    Any of those will work.
    Using the larger wire on a lower amp breaker is fine as long as it fits into the terminal.
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  6. #6

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    Thanks for the help so far! I have modified my plans based on the responses and have some additional questions:

    Circuits to wire:

    1) Compressor – 30 amp, 30A breaker (10-2 wire)
    2) Welder – 20amp (220v), (10-2 wire)
    3) 1x 20amp receptacle (110v)
    4) Hoist motor - 25 amp breaker (10-2 wire)

    There are quite a few questions and I appreciate any help I can get! If you can only answer 1 or 2 then please do so anyways!

    Questions:

    1) Is USA cable the same as Canadian cable in terms of standards. Headed to USA soon and would like to purchase there if acceptable
    2) Can wiring be installed near existing propane line which feeds from outside tanks, inside garage then into basement to furnace. Any distances?
    3) What is the limit of wires going into a junction box? Just the number of available slots? I assume 1 wire per slot?
    4) Please confirm - 14 gauge wiring for 15 amp receptacles and 12 gauge wiring for 20 amp receptacles?
    5) How much wire "Slack" is needed for a receptacle?
    6) How much wire "Slack" is needed in the panel?
    7) Assuming GFCI is NOT required for receptacles. Correct?
    How do you size conduit? are there specified sizes? I'd like to run 2 sets of 10/2 through 1 conduit pipe and then another with a single 10/2.
    9) Special rules for supporting conduit? Or can I just attach to motor at bottom and strap it to the 2x4 truss in the ceiling?
    When drilling through 2x4 studs, are there specified sizes that must be adhered to? Is this 1 wire per hole type rule?
    10) A/C disconnect - based on what was said, I assume that I could use either a fusable or non-fusable type? The type that opens and you pull out the contact - can this be used more like an on / off switch or if that's the case should I pay more and get the lever type? I plan on shutting power down to the unit when not in use. IE: Can I use this like a "light switch"
    11) AC90 vs ROMEX. Are codes strict on the size of clamps you use for each type of cable for strapping?
    12) How often does the cable require strapping

    That's all I have for now! Thanks in advance for any help! I know enough not to electrocute myself but definitely need some education in the regulations surrounding this job!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    Welland Ontario
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    1. NO. You can not use US cable or panel box in Canada.
    2. no problems
    3. There is a box fill calculation based on box size and wire sizes.
    4. confirmed
    5. You need at least 6" of wire sticking out of a box.
    6. Enough to reach to the breaker
    7. If within 1.5 m of sink GFCI is required. Out door receptacles also.
    8. not sure. Don't work with conduit enough.
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  8. #8
    Join Date
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    Conduit is sized by percentage of conductor fill. If you're using cable (NMD90, Romex), I would not use conduit as you treat that cable like a single huge conductor. If you want multiple 30A circuits in a conduit, then you'd pull individual #10 conductors. I only know the US rules for conduit and not Canadian, so you'd need to study this further. You may be able to use conduit as a sleeve for additional protection of NM cables (usually a straight segment and usually not all that long). In the US, there really aren't rules for sleeves. But if doing a complete conduit system, there are many rules to know including how often you need to support each conduit type.

    If you're running cable through studs, you need the hole to be large enough to not damage the jacket when you pull it through. I would try to keep the holes cented in the sud and no larger than 1" diameter if a 2x4 stud. If you have less than 1.25" of space between a cable jacket and the face of a stud, then you need to install a nail protection plate. So a 1" hole is max, and a 3/4" hole is better as it gives some leeway in positioning. Usually, you can run a bundle of 3 cables through the same holes without having to derate them from their "normal" ampacity, even if the wall is insulated.

    Fused or unfused disconnect is fine as long as the source breaker is in compliance with the tool and wire restrictions (not too small or too large). You can use any of the switch type (ones that looks like a circuit breaker or an external handle) as a repeatedly used disconnect. I'm not sure how often the pull out types are rated for number of insertions, but they are more of a pain to use. You can turn the disconnect off when the tool is on. But I would make sure the tool is turned off before turning the disconnect back on.

    Usually, you can use any suitable cable clamping method that doesn't damage the cable (and the inspector is the one who decides if it damaged the cable). There are requirements for how often it is stapled and how close to each termination the staple must be. I would exceed the stapling requirements, as the cable runs looks pretty wavy if you use the code limit (in the US it is within 12" of each box and every 4.5' of cable run). Bored holes in studs count as securing and supporting (same function as a staple). I like the plastic NM cable staples that have 2 nails in them. Metal staples can easily damage the cable. Cable cannot be stapled on edge, but there are longer staples so you can staple 2 flat cables directly on top of each other.
    Mark
    Kent, WA

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