Ejector Pit Venting

[howie099]

I purchased a different home a year ago and in the basement where the ejector pit is the pipe that would go outside to vent is redirected above the waste line when the pump come on. I am assuming this must of passed code in late 70's because there is no pipe in the area for this thing to attach to. My question is can I leave it the way it is or should I try to vent it? If I try to vent it there is no way I can even make the roof since the house is all finished, all the rest of the plumbing and Electrical is in the way. Would I be able to vent it out the side of the house?

Thanks

[homebild]

Depends on your type of ejector.

Sewage pumps and sewage ejectors can be vented to the existing vent system or be vented out through the side of the house. They can even use an air admittance valve for venting.

Pneumatic ejectors must be vented independently through the roof.

[Phil H]

Homebild,
An AAV won't allow the air to escape when the sump is filling. The drainline into the sump may back-up.

[homebild]

Homebild,
An AAV won't allow the air to escape when the sump is filling. The drainline into the sump may back-up.

Not so.

The air can escape by way of the waste line into the sewer ejector.

In other words by a code approved 'wet vent'.

IRC 2003 P3113.4.1 states:

"Drainage piping below sewer level shall be vented in a similar manner to that of a gravity system."

IRC 2003 in P3114.3 further states regarding air admittance valves:

"Indvidual vents, branch vents and stack vents shall be permitted to terminate with a connection to an air admittance valve."

This includes sewage pumps and sewage ejectors other than pneumatic types.

If you know of an IRC code reference that prohibits an AAV on a sewage pump or sewage ejector, I'd like to see it.

[Phil H]

I had a bookmark for the ICC codes online, but it doesn't work anymore crash_! And, I couldn't find it quickly on ICC's website. Maybe the ICC choose to remove online access for the masses.

I live in UPC land. I find it remarkable that the IPC would allow an AAV on a sealed sump. I guess they think that a wasteline will never run full. Try tellling that to a washing machine draining or a toilet flushing. I wonder why they require a vent on the sump if they allow AAV. It it is a bad idea. The system would need to be designed with larger drain pipes to ensure that they would never run full. And, I would still be concerned about suds on the airway.

[homebild]

You can use the New York State code link below chapter 31 to see the IRC requirements for sewage pumps, sewage ejectors, and pnematic ejectors under section P3113.4.

You can see Air Admittance Valves under section P3114.

Size of vent piping for sewage pumps and sewage ejectors (other than pneumatic) are found in Table P311.4.1 and based on the discharge capacity of the pump.

As an ICC certfied Residential Plumbing Inspector I can tell you with all assurance that AAVs are allowed on sewage pumps and sewage ejectors except for pneumatic type under the IRC.

UPC may be different, but as far as IRC goes, what I have stated is what the Code minimally allows....."best practice" nothwithstanding.....

You can find code accepted wet venting and combination venting practices
under sections P3108 and P3111 respectively.

http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/new_york/NY_Residential/residential_frameset.htm

What you suggest may be so under the UPC.

It does not apply under the IRC.

[Phil H]

Unless things have changed recently, the UPC does not allow AAVs. A picky IPC inspector may point out the following.

Sewage pumps and sewage ejectors.
P3113.4.1 "... shall be vented independently in a similar manner to that of a gravity system."
Air Admittance Valves
P3114.7 " ... a mimimum of one stack vent or vent stack shall extend outdoors to the open air."
Also, P3114.4 states that the AAV is suppose to be installed a minimum distance above the drain. A sump is not a drain.

Here is some information from Studor on venting a sump http://www.studor.com/DesignCriteria.pdf
Last page: "The Studor AAVs shall not be intalled as a vent for any sump / sewer ejector unless approved by the administrative authority." I don't think they are referring only to pneumatic ejectors. But, who knows.

Besides all of that. It is a bad idea to put the AAV on a sump because it will not vent positive pressure.

[homebild]

It may not be 'best practice' to install an AAV on a sewage ejector or sump pump, but clearly, the International Residential Code allows AAVs, and allows AAVs on other than pneumatic type ejectors.

P3113.4.1 you have misquoted and does not state that an independent vent is necessary for a sewage pump or ejector.

P3113.4.1 IRC 2000/2003 states:

"Drainage piping below sewer level shall be vented in a similar manner to that of a gravity system."

Period.

I think you have confused the code section above with section P3113.4.2 which applies to pneumatic sewage ejectors only and states:

"The air pressure relief pipe from a pneumatic sewage ejector shall be connected to an independet vent stack terminating as required for vent extensions through the roof".

Only pneumatic type ejector require an independent stack to fresh air through the roof under IRC...NOT sewage pumps nor non-pnematic sewage ejectors.

P3114.7 you misapply completely. The intent of this section is that there will be a minimum ofone stack or vent stack that terminates above the roof on every structure 's drainage system when AAVs are employed or when they are not employed. This section in no way limits the number of AAVs. It simply requires at least 1 vent or stack vent through the roof at all times on all drainage systems. Every thing else in the house can be vented through an AAV.

Studor, as you noted, even allows their AAVs for use with sewer ejectors and defers to the local code authority in determining their use. The Code also states where there is a conflict between the plumbing code sections and the manufacturer's installation instructions, the provisions of IRC section R102.4 applies which specifically states:

"Where differences occur between provisions of this code and referenced codes and standards, the provisions of this code shall apply.

EXCEPTION: Where enforcement of a code provision would violate the conditions of the listing of the equipment or appliance, the conditions of the listing and manufacturer's instructions shall apply."

Studor has ceded their manufacturer's installation instructions and listing to the Code Official, so there remains absolutely no conflict bewteen the Code and Studor regarding the use of AAVs: They are FULLY PERMIITED for use on non-pneumatic type sumps and ejectors.

"Best practice", like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder (or beerholder for that matter...).

The Code is only concerned with minimum standards and making sure any appliances or devices that are installled comply with MMI's or standard references, and using an AAV with a non-pneumatic sewage ejector is perfectly acceptable practice under the IRC plumbing standards for 2003, and has been continued as an acceptable practice through 2009.

Other than IRC codes, or local codes, may restrict the use of AAVs on ejectors, but this forum is dedicated to International Residential Code 2000 and 2003 issues, and bringing UPC or other codes into the discussion is notable, but largely off-topic.

You may not like the fact that AAVs are allowed on sewage ejectors and I may not like AAVs used on sewage ejectors, but the fact remains, under IRC 2000 and 2003, they are perfectly permissable and as an IRC Plumbing Inspector, I would have choice but to approve them....and do approve them.

Are there better ways to vent a sewage ejector?

Yes, certainly.

But an AAV is permitted by IRC Code and that's all we are concerned with here.

[Phil H]

Whatever. Here is the text from the link you provided to the NY State Code second draft. I assume that they did not ammend this part of the IRC.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l116/philhoen/untitled.jpg
I hope photobucket and this site are compatible, let me know if the image does not appear. I did not miss quote the code. I copied this section into my previous message. It clearly states "independently."

Honestly, I have nothing against AAV. I could care less. But, I am not a big fan of the I-codes. Other codes like the UPC have problems too. It depends on who butters the bread of the code making organization.

[homebild]

Phil H:

Thanks for the jpg.

I see the problem.

The New York State Code has amended the IRC and actually added the word 'independently' in section P3113.4.1. I only offered the NY state code as an example of its similarity to the national IRC and it's on line availability.

The Nation model IRC does not include the word 'independently' here:

"P3113.4.1 Sewage pumps and sewage ejectors other than pneumatic. Drainage piping below sewer level shall be vented in a manner similar to that of a gravity system." 2000/2003/2006 IRC

You can see the IRC plumbing chapters in their non-amended form by using the Residential Code of Michigan:

http://ecodes.iccsafe.org/iccf/gateway.dll/?f=templates$fn=default.htm$up=1$3.0$vid=icc:mi

Or the South Carolina Code:

http://ecodes.iccsafe.org/iccf/gateway.dll/?f=templates$fn=default.htm$up=1$3.0$vid=icc:sc


But it still doesn't matter because an AAV is an 'independent' vent according to the IRC and NY state code.

But the IRC and other codes are what they are and are the legal code where adopted...for better or worse.

And I agree that IRC is weaker than the old BOCA codes and not my favorite either, but for most US states (now 47) the IRC is the code of choice. <shrugs>

[howie099]

I have no idea on what kind of pump is in the hole and I really do not want to look unitl it fails. I know it has been replaced onnce since the old one I just though out a few week ago. The old owner kept it for some reason. They could of changed the codes after my house was built but is has been working for 27 years with out a glitch. I can tell you it is all 2" PVC and it has some check valves on it and dumps right to the 4" septic line. It never smells or anything so it must be working ok. I only asked because a friend that was a plumber saw it and like freaked out. It has never over flowed and it realy does not go off that much when the laundry is going it goes off maybe 3 times though the whole cycle. I have noticed though since I have been going though the building process everyone in my county building has a different answere when I call and ask. Thanks for all the help.

[Piper]

Besides all of that. It is a bad idea to put the AAV on a sump because it will not vent positive pressure.
The only way you would have positive pressure in the pit would be when the pump fails if properly installed. If the owner wants to he could vent through the sill plate away from any windows or make up air openings.

[Phil H]

Howie,
It is hard to say exactly how your the sump is currently vented. Since it is working with out any problems, I would leave it rather than venting through a side wall. Code aside, if you re-routed the vent through the side wall, you may create objectionable odors outside which may migrate inside.

Piper,
A properly installed system has some kind of vent. Without a vent, positive pressure is possible. Imagine a simple system with only a clothes washer connected to a sewage pump system. When the drain line is running full, there is no place for the air to escape the sump without a vent. It bulids up pressure.

[Piper]

Phil,
The drain should not be full. I should have said properly adjusted float. It was common to see sealed pits installed without vent in the sevenies. I don't agree with that practice and since it does work I would leave it alone.

[howie099]

Well it probably does vent some since the kitchen and bath rooms have vent pipes installed on the same pipes that carry the waste down and all the pipes are connected I guess it does vent some.


Thanks for all the help it works fine now and I have not had any issues so I will leave it alone until a issue comes up.

[homebild]

Howie said:

"I have no idea on what kind of pump is in the hole and I really do not want to look unitl it fails."

Well gee whiz howie.

How the heck are we supposed to diagnose your problems without you at least telling us the basics?

You have no clue as to kind of pump...
Can't tell us manufacturer....
Don't want to look at it...

You sound like Goodrich who wants to answer IRC 2003 construction questions ignorantly without having any clue what the IRC 2003 says!

Pity and an embarassment....

[Bumblerazz]

Yeehaw!!! Homebuild strikes again!!

[Phil H]

Yeehaw!!! Homebuild strikes again!!

Troll or Homebuild groupie?

[Bumblerazz]

Neither, really. Though I think Homebuild fills the grumpy ol' troll character quite well. :)

[howie099]

Why would I take the working pit apart to look at a pump that has been in there for years? Something could break and than I would really need a pumber. Which more than likey the name or model number has been rusted off or worn off. All I wanted to know is about the venting. I am not a plumber and I do not want to be a pumber I just wanted to know since I person said it was wrong, but it has been working for 30 years. For that I do not call that lucky. That is all I wanted to know. If it would be really needed I would pull it apart but another person posted the answere already.

Thanks for all the help.