Nfpa 909

[mdshunk]

Are you at all familiar with NFPA document 909? It relates to places where historical documents are stored. It seems that it is also has requirements for AFCI's for places where portable appliances can be plugged up [NFPA909 sec 3.8.1] I take that to mean all general purpose receptacles. I do some work in churches, which seems to fall under NFPA 909. I've been dinged before for using PVC conduit in a church, because it is a "place of assembly". Now I learn about NFPA 909 for churches too. I was just curious if you had any comments on the matter of NFPA 909.

[Wgoodrich]

This article refers to places or records and churches, libraries etc. However this rule is limited to enforce only if the utilization equipment is without thermal protection. Almost all appliances and utilization equipment uses thermal protection.

It is true plactic conduit and Romex is not allowed in places of assemblies. Next time you wire a church think metal clad cable. Should meet the need for flexibility and metal conduit protection.

Also be aware churches have special concerns with fire protection and GFCI protection of main service breaker is over 1000 amp service as well as fire rated walls being required in most areas.

Hope this helps

Wg

[mdshunk]

I don't have a link, but the text is as follows:

3.8 Electrical Hazards.
3.8.1 Portable electrical appliances shall be connected to a building electrical circuit that is protected with an arc-fault circuit interrupter (AFCI).

Exception: Portable electrical appliances that are provided with thermal and electrical limit controls that will cause the appliance to failsafe if they malfunction.


The 2001 NFPA 909 (Code for the protection of cultural resources) establishes requirements for providing fire protection and fire safety to a wide range of cultural institutions including libraries, museums and places of worship.

An incandescent table lamp doesn't necessarily fail safe, does it? Maybe you're right, that just about every modern appliance would be excepted. Just got a little worried when I saw the AFCI requirement, since it would add mega bucks to churches. I wouldn't necessarily ignore the requirement just because it has not been adopted as law. You gotta know, that if something bad happened (fire) and some lawyer found out that there was a published standard that applied, you'd still look pretty bad... law or not.

Since my small PVC screwup in a church (just one circuit), churches have been all been done in PVC and EMT. Can't even use Romex in the bowels of a church anymore.

[Wgoodrich]

YOU QUOTED RULE;

3.8 Electrical Hazards.
3.8.1 Portable electrical appliances shall be connected to a building electrical circuit that is protected with an arc-fault circuit interrupter (AFCI).

REPLY;

This rule seems to apply to every plug in that type building mentioned. However when we read the exception it gets to be a very big exception, see below;

YOU QUOTED RULE;
Exception: Portable electrical appliances that are provided with thermal and electrical limit controls that will cause the appliance to failsafe if they malfunction.

REPLY;
This exception hits almost anything listed and labeled by testing labrotories. Motors have thermal protection, furnaces have high limit switches, even a fryer has a high limit switch. If you think hard you would be hard pressed to name any utilization equipment or appliance that would not meet this exception to the main rule. Almost everything would be exempted from rule 909 because of requirements of testing labratories to pass for listing and labeling requiring these internal thermal protections.

YOU SAID;
An incandescent table lamp doesn't necessarily fail safe, does it? Maybe you're right, that just about every modern appliance would be excepted. Just got a little worried when I saw the AFCI requirement, since it would add mega bucks to churches. I wouldn't necessarily ignore the requirement just because it has not been adopted as law. You gotta know, that if something bad happened (fire) and some lawyer found out that there was a published standard that applied, you'd still look pretty bad... law or not.

REPLY;
An incandescent table lamp would not apply in this rule. Table lamps are considered as fixtures for general lighting not appliances.

Doubt you will find a condition concerning this rule that is not already covered by manufacturing and listing rules also. Kind of hits me as a repetitive rule that is already approached as the products are manufactured.

I would think it hard pressed to hold a person liable for not adhering to what is advised instead of what has been made a rule of law in your State.

I believe you will be hearing much more about AFCI protection over the next two or three Code cycles but do not predict much added in the 2005 NEC concerning AFCI or GFI protection.

Great subject to discuss. Opens some thoughts

Wg

[Unregistered]

Only the part(s) of the church that are actually classified as a "place of assembly" require the MC/EMT/Etc. The rest of the church (offices/classrooms/halls/Etc.) are NOT places of assembly and are not subject to Art 518.

[Wgoodrich]

While your statement can be correct it would depend on the fire rating of the fire marshall's office as a dual occupancy building. I suspect you will find those areas unless separated by a 12 hour fire wall with auto fire door closures involved would not be rated differently.

Just my opinion.

Wg

[mdshunk]

I see that the 2005 NEC proposes to change "places of assembly" wording to "assembly occupancies" anyhow. This (to me) would seem to force any occupancy with a place of assembly to have the whole building classified as an assembly occupancy. If my hunch is right, this would force hotels with meeting and banquet facilities (places of assembly) to have the whole building classified as an assembly occupancy. Right or wrong? Or does a fire wall assembly of a certain hour rating define a seperate occupancy?