Get rid.........

[Ohm1]

Get rid of the saying: "Save Your Money!!" :roll:

[dkerr]

Is there any one else that any concerns over this, it is a common quote in the market place, advertising. Just don't say no, but answer reasons / why ?

The 'Do It Yourself and More' is a site I am working on it, that in a lot of ways similiar to 'selfhelp and more', but will have a different layout, completely different sets of keywords, etc., and will have a series of multimedia instructional items, it is a project in the making and will take a while. I am beginning to study keywords used on other popular sites / keyword densities, etc. The 'save your money' was an idea for sub theme, whatever iit takes to draw people in, or to raise search engine results. The multimedia expansion is one that I think would be great, to have animation and motion video instruction.

Not much to add the additonal site, just the domain name, the hosting already exists .

I am complating on to handle the forums with it, some ideas are to do it as it is now with the addition of a couple of new logos at the top as you see now. Or to find a way to change the header you see based on the entry link, both using the same database/user base, etc., on a header/cosmetic difference.

Don

[Mr Fixit eh]

I like it, Don. I don't think the intent is to 'steal' work away from the professional electricians who are gracious enough to donate time and expertise to help the DIYers. This site recognizes that there are lots of highly (and not so highly) inexperienced DIY wannabees out there in www-land, and it's mandate is to provide excellent-quality advice that will help to ensure the safety of our sister nations. So as far as I'm concerned, anything that will further that mandate by attracting answer-seekers....I'm all for it.

My 2 cents

PS. How can we see the under-construction site?

[dkerr]

The site is in its primative stages, what it finally be may differ from even the initial layout, plus I don't want th etest link posted to the public at the moment. But the site will be at www.doityourselfandmore.com , but all you will now at that link is note saying the site is under construction.

Just stay tuned, it will take a while, adding animations and voice instruction to them will take time.

I have heard that some pro electricians are under the opinion that no one that is not in the profession should be 'doing it themselves', but regardless of the pros and cons to that argument, we all know homeowners in the interest of saving money do 'do it themselves', and even though it should all be inspected, we also know that is not always the case in real life. I am not here to argue or condemn people for not sticking to the exact legal requirements for their 'do it yourself' work. Other people in their juristdictions get paid to be enforcers not us. We will always advice what is required.

If we can give some of the best advice we can on how to do it right, than I think we have provided a service that is and will be in high demand. And even if it is done by the 'diy'er' and even if they forgo the inspection requirement, at least if we help the person to do it the right way, and they are are safe, then I think we have done a good job.

It has always been that the average joe will often try and do it themeselves usually to save money that is ofen not that plentifull, and rather some pros believe that non pros should be banned from doin it, it is going to be done anyway regardless if we agree or not, at least we can save lives by helping the average Joe from burning down his house.

[Ohm1]

"Save Your Money". This statement sounds like we are advocating to the consumer to "not" hire an Electrician (or electrical contractor). We are in the business of helping, but the statement has no merit on this site! It should be erased!

[Mr Fixit eh]

Using this logic, maybe we should change the web-address from selfhelpforums.com to don'tdoityourself.com ?

[Kode VioL8R]

I agree that "Save Your Money" may make some people think that they should do it as cheaply as possible, but on the other hand, we do want a place for the DIYer to find quality information.

Since many projects may require a pro electrician for certain parts (i.e. homeowner runs the cables to panel, electrician makes final connections), how about "Save Some Money" instead?

[Ohm1]

Using this logic, maybe we should change the web-address from selfhelpforums.com to don'tdoityourself.com ? I think you are lost on the subject matter, and your statement has no Logic. :???: :grin:

Kode has an excellent idea, if we are trying to satisfy both sides! Good idea Kode!

It would be foolish to think we aren't here to help with some of the projects being presented, when we are taking time out of our day to help, as well as, donate to this site! (Note: Us being here prevents accidents.) Yet, as electricians, and responsible persons, we "must" be responsible and let a person know when it's time to hire an electrician! Although some jurisdictions and people aren't taking electricity serious, most are! It only takes approximately 200 milliamps of current through the human body to be lethal. Our work is serious business! This is not your walk in the park profession. People can be hurt, or even killed. Property and families are lost every year, because of bad electrical connections! We should be here for those who want to do there own work, so they can get guidance on how to do it in a safe manner, yet we cannot be irresponsible and start sending messages that they do not need to hire electricians. This is ridiculous!

[dkerr]

I am well aware of the dangers of electricity, I am also aware of the high quality work that goes into the work done by trades people such as electricians.

Logic says if you don't have the money to do it right or have the inability to do it yourself, perhaps it is better to not do it all all, either do it right or not at all.

There is certain things that I won't touch and one of those is gas pipes, I will call someone if a natural gas line in the house needs working on, most anything in the house I will tackle, and anything in the elctrical area I will do. But I know my knowledge area, and the area in which I feel the most confortable in learning if I need extra help, gas lines I won't touch or even ask for additional help or info on.

Most consumers should know their limits, the average person is not going to be changing a main electrical panel or outside meter. There is a few that will that we can help advise, but the person know their learning limits, but even if the person cannot do a perticular job, the advice we can provide will make them less likely to be taken in by someone.

Yes there is a few idiots out there that woudl screw up no matter how much info we provide, however I also believe that most consumers can do most electrical work in their home if provided with the correct information and advice, and they can do it correct.

And what is wrong with 'save your money' or 'save some money' rather you say it or not, the only reason for a consumer to 'do it yourself' is to save money, but we also want to provide the info / knowledge tools that it is done right.

I am going to do whatever it takes to double or triple our daily users to this site, and also double or triple our info /articles on the site. The new additional site will have the articlles greatly enhanced, but all this is not going to be done quickly and it will take a lot of time to create properly.

I also know that thousands of people everyday do 'do it themselves' and some of those really don't know what they are doing, and if we can only draw those people to our even under the premise of 'saving your money' the better, whatever it takes for some one to choose to click on our link in the search engine results, you only get one chance, a person searches for something and something in the results the person will decide to click on.

'Save your money' or save some money' is along the same theme, and may be willing to your to some, it is still along the same theme, don't see much difference in it, but may be willing to chance it. After all doingitself or not you still have to spend money on suppliesand you are only saving money on the labour part of the job.

[dkerr]

It has been changed to 'save some money'

Don

[Mr T]

now the space before the ! looks funny :D

[Wgoodrich]

I think some thought as to the original reason for this site has been lost. I spent approximately 10 years writing articles and books that are on this site. I have spent approximately 13 years as an inspector promoting knowledge and safety through knowledge. Don also has spent countless hours and years building this site. We originally met on another forum site years ago trying to help others learn right and be safe.

What prompted me to spend so much of my life dedicated to helping those help themselves is because I had to see the clean spot on teh carpet where the two little girls died and the little boy electricuted at the age of 2 in diapers while trying to turn on a simple table lamp. Those deaths occurred in my opinion due to lack of knowledge. There are more important things in the measure of success of your life than money.

We never started this site to make money or save money for others. We started these web sites in the knowing that if we don't promote knowledge and make the knowledge of wiring and building correctly available to any walk of life with or without them having money too many people will die not knowing they didn't know or couldn't do that or made a toaster of their own home inviting burning up their own families. Life and knowledge is much more precious than money ever was. No one can take away a persons knowledge.

We knew when we started these web sites that many people that don't know they don't know also are very poor unable to pay for knowledge to make their families safe. Whether they know how to do it safely or not they have two choices when poor and without money, leave the unsafe wiring unsafe inviting injury or death or try to increase the wiring while trying to make it safe whether they know how or not.

These sites while it may save some money, give some a sense of pride that they did their research and was able to do it themselves with pride, knowledge and safety was meant to promote knowledge thus save lives.

People are going to do it themselves whether they know how or not. The time we all spend on these web sites helping those trying to help themselves also help the professionals at the same time. If a person takes the time to read on these web sites Don and I have provided and others have donated time to help promote knowledge they often discover it is over their head and will call a pro even if it hurst their budget. This is done before they made a mess of things and risked others safety by learning enough to know it was over their head. Many even discovered that hiring a pro saved them money due to the pro's buying power and level of knowledge creating speed and less cost even done by a pro.

After reading this Ohm does it make you rethink. Saving money many times has been quoted on our forums by hiring the pro. Are you sure we should not mention saving money even if hiring the pro is a method of saving the money?

Sorry for being long windded just wanted to get the thoughts back to basics why our web sites were created in teh first place to serve the people, promote knowledge, and safety as well as saving money one way or another.

Good Luck

Wg

[pushkins]

WG, I think you have made two points that hit the nail on the head in this discussion.
1. They are going to do it anyway so why not try to help them do it right !
2. We never started this site to make money or save money for others, we started them to promote knowledge !
(not verbatum)

I've read some of the strangest and sometimes dangerous questions on this forum, from statements like " I'm going to do it anyway but I wanted to know why I shouldn't" !!!! (<<personal favorite) to " I have no idea what I'm doing , can someone help me?".
To me the simple fact that these people have looked for an answer on the web, found this forum and are asking their question is proof enough ( for the most) that they want to do it safely and need help in doing so.

How many of you change your own spark plugs or oil in your car to save a buck or two, this doesn't make you a mechanic but if you learn how and can do the job then there is always that self satisfaction (and god knows an oil change is only about $20 it's not like you saved a term deposit), so in reading on the net how to do this, does that mean the web site is promoting you not going to a mechanic ?....I don't think so !

I've run miles of electrical cable in renovating homes (I doubt if I could even imagine how many miles some of you have runbow_1 ), I've learned how to install sub panels and read how to install main panels over the years, but to this day I still call in a sparky to do main panels. While I'm sure I could do it, I feel unsure doing it and electricity and unsure don't mix well especially at main panels, so I know my limits and I respect those that are far wiser than me.
I am also sure that a lot of people looking for answers on this forum are VERY uncomfortable with electricity and when some start hearing #8 wire, bonded, THWN, box fill calcs. etc...etc... they start also looking for the yellow pages and those that don't and want to fumble through it, then I'm glad that there are people here more than happy to hand out some of the best advice there is.
More than once I've read " consult an pro" or "if your not comfortable get an pro".
I really see no harm in the wording "save some money" as WG said more often then not a pro will be quicker, cleaner and possibly cheaper in the long run, but for those willing to do it themselves lets at least give them a fighting chance.

[Mr T]

My several cents....

1>This thread started off debating 'save your money', and evolved into 'save some money'. I noticed that about every post mentioned something along the lines of safety, learning, and doing it right. Yet theres no mention of any of these in the tag line.

Shouldnt it mention something along the lines of '...you can learn to do it your self (safely).'


2>I think that the 'save some money' should be included, but at the end. We are pushing doing it correctly and safely first, and hopefully saving some money while doing it. The way it is now, I see it as saving money is the top priority.

Someone is going to read that and expect this site to tell them how to do it
for cheap. That is going to be what they scan for in the posts. However,
they could be skipping over the information that says they need a additional device that is essential for safety (like a GFCI breaker on a hot tub heater) because it involves a more expensive (but correct) solution.


How bout.....

"With the help of our experts and Instuctional Articles, you can learn how to do it your self - Safely, and save (some) money!

((some) is optional)

This promotes learning and safety first, and saving money too.

[Ohm1]

Wow! Glad to see I've promoted discussion. Outstanding idea Mr. T! I like the new slogan Don! Thanks WG---as always! 1:D

[Mr T]

Yea, you are finally good for something.. oh wait did I just type that outloud?

Looks better, still not prom oting learning how to do it correct/safe?

[Ohm1]

Yea, you are finally good for something.. oh wait did I just type that outloud? I'll be watching you! :twisted:

[Roger]

I'm not real sure why we even think money has to be part of any logo. I seriously doubt it matters. The vast majority of people that come to the forum already have made up their mind they cant afford to hire someone.
If the're looking for a way to do something so cheap that it compromises safety they probably arent going to listen to the advice on the forum that goes against that predetermined goal anyway. So the "saving money" is already imbedded in their minds before they come to the forum. I see no reason to use it period, nor do I think it makes a difference one way or the other. My take on most of the people who use the forum is that they want to see if they can do it themselves and if they feel that they can do it, after reviewing the advice we all offer, then they know it saves them money. Save some money nor Save Your Money is a show stopper statement in a DIY format.

I never looked at this forum as a place to save a buck. You dont have to be very smart to figure out if you can do it right and do it safe and do it yourself its going to "save some money" or "save your money".

Do it Yourself = save money.

I vote to take any reference to money out all together because it reflects that we put money as the priority for using the site.

[Mr Fixit eh]

I understood Don to be saying that the "Save Money" was a tag to try and ATTRACT more people who do not currently drop by our forum to visit. In his following post, he clarifies clearly that his position is primarily on ensuring that DIYers do it safe. I fully support Don/WG doing whatever they think will support their mandate -- whether that includes "save" or not.

[dkerr]

I have never seen before so much discussion just a couple little words in a slogan.

You go to a newspaper stand, you see several competing newspapers, which one will you buy ? or will you even buy any.

Of course a few people may be driven by cost (if different prices) or are so dedicated to a particular one as that was the only paper they ever read in their life. But most will buy or not buy on a moments impulse or something that catches their eye on the first page.

For example, headlines on first page of 3 newspapers….

1. THEY GOT HIM !

2. BUSH GETS HIS MAN

3. AFTER EXTENSIVE AND EXHAUSTING SEARCHING, SADAM FINIALLY IS FOUND HIDING OUT IN IRAQ

The subway train or bus is coming in a couple of minutes, you glance at the newspapers near by, are you going to buy one and if so which one ?

You see a commercial on tv, you comment what a stupid commercial it is. Later that day, you happen to drive by the establishment / business, and remember and say to yourself, that’s the place that has that stupid commercial. Well, that stupid commercial has just more than done its job, because you remembered it, and maybe you could even stop by and see what that business has to offer. Commercials in itself do not necessarily sell you anything, advertisements are mainly meant to get your interest up enough to get you into the store or business. Once there, the business establishment / store will have to resort to the skills of their sales staff on their own merits and the products they offer to be able to get and keep your business. The commercial / advertisement did not do that, but the merits of business took over. The advertisement / commercial/fancy slogans, etc., were for the sole purpose of getting you to the store / business. The store / business will not get or keep you if there is nothing there of interest to you, doesn’t matter how good or clever the ads were.

The same holds true of websites, first thing you have to do is get the word out there, and use whatever means to get them to your site, but the merits and content on the site is what will keep them there, and keep them coming back.

1st you have to try and get high up on the search engine results using the most popular keywords or phrases that is used for people searching for the type of content that is contained on the website in question. It is rare that people will look beyond the first or second page of the search engine results.

2nd. What is contained in the very brief description that comes up with the results that would encourage the person to click on your web link as apposed to another. What is going to be there, the person just did a search, in the next 5 to 10 seconds he/she will click on one of the results, but which one ?

1. With help from our Instructional Articles and
advice from our experts - YOU CAN DO IT YOURSELF !”

2. Save Your Money – You can do it Yourself ! , with our instructional articles and help advice from our experts will show you how to save money and do it safely.

3.Home Repair / renovating made easy, do it yourself and more

And so on, I could have better examples and worse examples.

You are so worried rather the person primary concern is lack of money or saving money over possible safety, but you cannot drill safety unless the person is at the site, once at the site then the merits of our content and expertise of our forums advises will take over, but all of that is out the window if they choose to click on on another link in the search engine results. All this safety concerns is completely out the window unless you can first get them to the site.

I not even sure if I would have stuck to ‘save your money’ to begin with, because I was playing around with some words, and who knows what it would have evolved with, it certainly would not be used a keyword as people would not be searching for ‘save your money’ to find the site, but only as something that may come up in the result description.

The new site will be a year in the making, as it is quite time consuming to redo graphics /drawing, etc and create new layouts image maps etc.

Don

[Roger]

Don, your right this really is ridiculous bickering over a few words in the tag for the site discription on a search engine.

My opinion is it doesnt make a difference about the money slogan. I dont think it will create a wave of additional users.

I dont have any expertise in what your doing so my opinion isnt worth much.

Like you said this is something in the making so all this is really just an overreaction.

This is you and Wg's site afterall.

[pushkins]

Like you said this is something in the making so all this is really just an overreaction.

This is you and Wg's site afterall.

Ahhhhhh at last the perfect answer.
The owners have the right to put, place or add what "they" feel the need to add.
If you put the labor and love into a paint choice in your house and others don't like it .....do they have the right to tell you to paint over it ?
In reality typeface on a web page is just that, "paint in a room"
:)