This is what my attic insulation looks like.

[Guido]

Before buying the house the inspector said I should get a rake and level out the insulation, then add a little more blown in.

Right now the attic floor has batts of insulation between the studs, with blown stuff on top that was added at a later date. I don't recall the batts being any higher than the 2X4 stud. Most of the blown stuff it is on top of the master bedroom - I don't know if this was shoddy installation, or done on purpose. The drywall below the studs has aluminum foil on the top side.

It's a semi-detached bungalow. Typical Canadian winters.

1) Should I add more insulation as the inspector suggested? Is it possible to add TOO much?

2) Is blown type installation available for the do-it-yourselfer, or do I need to stick to batts? I'd rather install it myself than hire someone. And preferably the cheaper the better.

3) What if I rake the blown stuff off an area about 10X10', then roll on a layer of batt, then rake the blown stuff back on top, and repeat. Is this a good idea?

4) How the hell do I get a roll of insulation through my attic entrance? I don't think it'll fit in the opening!

5) Besides in a finished attic, when would be the case to insulate the rafters?

[pushkins]

1) Should I add more insulation as the inspector suggested? Is it possible to add TOO much?

Answer : I don't think you can have "too" much insulation as long as it doesn't fill the entire attic from floor to roof sheathing, BUT one does need to be sensible, I'd be looking at what the R value of what you have there is.

2) Is blown type installation available for the do-it-yourselfer, or do I need to stick to batts? I'd rather install it myself than hire someone. And preferably the cheaper the better.

Answer: Yes, blown in insulation is available to just about anyone who wants to hire the machine, here Lowes and H. Depot have them as well as most hire firms.

3) What if I rake the blown stuff off an area about 10X10', then roll on a layer of batt, then rake the blown stuff back on top, and repeat. Is this a good idea?

Answer: I don't think this way is going to save you any time, I'd make sure that the coverage is overall even throughout the attic space.

4) How the hell do I get a roll of insulation through my attic entrance? I don't think it'll fit in the opening!

Answer: Buy the insulation that is pre cut into shorter lengths and pass them up that way (if you fit they will fit)

5) Besides in a finished attic, when would be the case to insulate the rafters?[/QUOTE]

Answer: When you can make sure that there is a 1" clear space between the insulation and the underside of the roof sheathing.

If your attic is insulated correctly there should be no need to contemplate insulating the rafters.

[Guido]

According to your answers for # 2-4, I think I'll go with blown type - unless there is something I'm missing that may make me reconsider?
I'll price out both options.


If your attic is insulated correctly there should be no need to contemplate insulating the rafters.
I won't touch the rafters, I was just wondering why anyone does it at all, considering how much easier it is to insulate the attic floor.

[pushkins]

This web address has simple calc. sheet you can add up the thickness of your fibreglass and give it an approx. "R" value.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/tables/rvalue.html

[pushkins]

Here is another I just dug up, it might be more helpfull.

http://www.summitinsul.com/rvalues.htm

[Guido]

Thanks for the help.
I edited my question before reading your post because I found a site that explained how to measure. I also found out that a blowing machine is not needed and you can just open the bags and dump the stuff out (evenly and to rew'd thickness).
I don't think it'll be that difficult afterall.

[Mr Fixit eh]

Hey, Guido...you move to a new house?

I've got a concern looking at your pictures...I don't see any ventilation. Given your roof style, you should have cardboard or styrofoam channels between the roof joists, so that the insulation does not touch the roof sheathing. I also don't see any vents at the peak of the roof. You must have a good flow of fresh air circulation throughout the attic area -- what you need to ensure is that you have lots of unobstructed vent surface area in your soffits, channels between your rafters, and adequate vents in the peak of your roof. Without this ventilation, the heat will build up and prematurely "kill" your shingles, and you'll also have moisture build up which may damage the roof sheathing and rafters, etc.

And here, you thought this was going to be simple, eh?!!

[Guido]

Not a new house - I moved in almost 2 years ago. I've been putting off doing the attic insulation until I get the roof re-shingled this spring.

I have about 4-5 roof vents.
As far as I know I don't have a barrier at the bottom of the rafters to make sure the soffit vents are open. I will doublecheck that next time I go up there but it's tight getting close to the preimmiter of the attic because of the low rafters. And I hate moving around in there because I compress the insulation everywhere I step. But it is worth looking into.

The inspector noticed both bathroom vents not going completely through the roof (one can be seen in the photo). With all the snow up there this vent is basically closed and exhausts into the attic, so I try not to use it too much during the winter.

I guess when getting the roof reshingled it would be a good time to get one of those vents that suck air out when the wind blows and spins them?

[Mr Fixit eh]

It is a bad thing to have bath exhaust fans vented to the attic -- very, very bad.

I can't tell from the photos, but it would appear that you have a roof that is sloped (pitched) on all four sides--no vertical gable ends? You can have all the vents you want at the peak of the roof, and if fresh air can't get into the attic space, the moisture-laden air inside the attic is trapped and will not escape. Adequate vents in the vertical gable-ends will provide fresh air. If you don't have any gable-ends, then the only other option is vented soffits. You should make sure there are the channels between rafters and that the air can flow. There is a really good chance that the soffit vents are inadequate in surface area, are blocked up, or are non-existant. You should pay special attention to make sure they allow in lots of fresh air.

Putting in a rooftop wind tubine vent or an electrically powered vent will be useless if you do not ensure adequate intake of fresh air.

I have a 40 year old home with sloped roof on all four sides. I put in an electrically powered attic vent two years ago. At the same time, I cut oversized holes in the wooden soffits, and installed extra vented sections of aluminium soffit (aluminium siding). Then I crawled around the attic perimeter like a snake-in-the-grass, installing channels and pulling stuffed-in-insulation out from between the rafters. I did this around March-April, and it was hot-as-the-Iraqi-dessert.

You will get differing opinions about electric-powered vents. In a retrofit application, like yours, they are great. If you are planning to re-roof, then it is probably better to install a vented ridge cap. My powered vent runs from sun-up to 11pm during the summer, and I've noticed that it makes a significant difference in the interior temperature of the second-story rooms, and the temperature of the attic is reduced. The cooler attic temperatures will extend the life expectancy of your shingles.

[Guido]

It is a bad thing to have bath exhaust fans vented to the attic -- very, very bad.
Yup, that's what the inspector said, and it makes sense. That's why I rarely use the fan if I can help it. I will replace those vents with the type that goes through the roof.


I can't tell from the photos, but it would appear that you have a roof that is sloped (pitched) on all four sides--no vertical gable ends?
Good eye! Actually I only have three sides - it's a semi detached. But there are no gable ends.


If you don't have any gable-ends, then the only other option is vented soffits.
Attached is a photo of my soffit. Do you know the procedure of removing the aluminum soffit without damaging it? I imagine underneath I'll find plywood with holes every once in a while. And my goal is to enlarge and/or add more holes right?

Any idea how much vent area I'll need in the soffit for a 1200 sq. ft bungalow?


You should make sure there are the channels between rafters and that the air can flow.
I read up on this - sounds like a lot of work. What if I just rake the blown insulation out of the way? Will it eventually fall back? Or can anything be done from the oustide of the house at the soffit?


I have a 40 year old home with sloped roof on all four sides. I put in an electrically powered attic vent two years ago. At the same time, I cut oversized holes in the wooden soffits, and installed extra vented sections of aluminium soffit (aluminium siding). Then I crawled around the attic perimeter like a snake-in-the-grass, installing channels and pulling stuffed-in-insulation out from between the rafters. I did this around March-April, and it was hot-as-the-Iraqi-dessert.

This sounds like what I need to do. My concern is crawling around the attic I'll crush the blown-in insulation and render it useless. Any way to refluff it?


If you are planning to re-roof, then it is probably better to install a vented ridge cap.
I understand this is the ideal fix, unfortunately money is tight now so I'll have to compare this with adding regular vents. Hopefully they'll give me a break when they re-shingle.

[Phelps]

Nothing to do with your post, but did youy put in bigger (vinyl) windows than what was originall there and removed original concrete lintels over them? It almost looks like over that one window that doesn't have the white treatment (whatever them things are)... that it almost looks void of a lintel and it looks like it has weathered spray foam (that turns orange) up there. Just curious.

To remove the soffit panels you have to pull the nails that nail up under the aluminum coil stock fascia every so many feet, and hope that you can shift the fascia (edit: I originally used the wrong word by mistake and said 'soffit') outward...gutters and all, about 3/4 inch, without kinking the bottom of the fascia. Then that side of the soffit will be able to drop down and then you will be able to slide out sections of soffit from the channel that is up against the house.

[Guido]

Nothing to do with your post, but did youy put in bigger (vinyl) windows than what was originall there and removed original concrete lintels over them? It almost looks like over that one window that doesn't have the white treatment (whatever them things are)... that it almost looks void of a lintel and it looks like it has weathered spray foam (that turns orange) up there. Just curious.
That photo was taken after I bought the house, but before I took posession.
That orange thing is an unpainted piece of wood. I'm not sure what's behind it and I don't know if those windows are larger than the originals.

See the cable attached to that wood? The previous owner had a satellite dish on the back wall, and ran the cable along the side of the house, across the front and though a hole drilled in the front door frame, then about 15 feet to the TV. It's a bungalow - I don't know why he just didn't run it through the attic.



To remove the soffit panels you have to pull the nails that nail up under the aluminum coil stock fascia every so many feet, and hope that you can shift the soffit outward...gutters and all, about 3/4 inch, without kinking the bottom of the soffit. Then that side of the soffit wil be able to drop down and slide out of the channel up against the house.
OK, that makes sense. But do the actual soffit panels just slide into C channels? If so what if I drop one corner so I can slide all the panels out?

[Phelps]

I've never seen this done, and because the soffit panels interlock (it's been YEARS since I have installed these thing), I can't imagine being able to slide out the whole works in one chunk..because that is what you would have to do, I believe.

And that is hoping someone didn't nail the soffit panels out at the fascia end. Some people do, and some don't. Some installations call for an F-channel out at the fascia, where others simply rely on the underside of the fascia to hold up this end of the soffit.

I guess if it is easy for you to open up an end, you will learn soon enough as to the practicality of what you aim to do. But, you do have to exrtract the fascia nails on the bottom, anyway, as these will be going through the soffit as well.

[Mr T]

Did you ever figure out what that pipe coming out from your basement and going up the side of your houses went to? (in 4th pic down on the first page)


A trick you can do for installing foam insualtion baffles (wont work on plastic ones). Once the soffit is down, slide the baffle up the opening till it's where it needs to be. Take a shovel handle and slide it up there and tap it against the lowered areas of the baffle (the part that is against your roof sheething). All the nails from putting your roof on will pierce through the styrofoam and hold it in place. Drive some staples into what you can reach of it. Pushing the insulation back against it will help keep it in place. Since you are replacing your roof, you will need to check these baffles once the roof is finished. May need to retap a few. As long as they are letting air into your attic, they are fine though.

Take a lightweight leaf rake that is no wider then the space between your framing. Borrow a broom handle or such and duct tape it to the end of the rake (overlap 3 feet).. You should be able to pull the insulation away from the baffle areas without crawling through it as far... Push it back against the baffles when done. Try not to compact the insulation with the rake.

[Phelps]

Guido,

re-read my post #11 as I edited my 2nd paragraph to correct an error of calling the fascia soffit by mistake.

[Guido]

I guess if it is easy for you to open up an end, you will learn soon enough as to the practicality of what you aim to do.
That's probably what I'll end up doing - try opening up a section and see what I'm faced with.
I have a carport attached to the house, and spent quite a few hours up there this past weekend removing ice and water from the house gutters. I can only work on that section of the roof because I didn't have a ladder long enough for the other sections. The gutters are a complete chunk of ice, and now that the weather is warming up the water has nowhere to go and it's dripping all over the place. Some dripping over the gutter, but most leaking between the gutter and soffit. I can't keep my walkway clear of ice because of the constant dripping. I checked the downspouts and they're not blocked. I siphoned water out, and in 15 minutes the gutters are full again (melting snow).

My neighbor saw me do that and said the gutters were installed about 1 year before I bought the house, and they weren't installed with the correct slope. He said I can try removing it and reinstalling it sloping towards the downspouts. I think I'll just add another downspout at the low spot because it's a perfect spot for a rain barrel.

So let's see... new shingles, which will most definitely require some new plywood and vents, more soffit vents, soffit vent air spacers, more insulation, and fix leaky gutters. Yay! Every time I look up it costs me more. :neutral:

[Guido]

Did you ever figure out what that pipe coming out from your basement and going up the side of your houses went to? (in 4th pic down on the first page)

Actually, just yesterday when I was hammering my frozen gutters I noticed the words "Heat Vent" stamped on it. The way the baffles are shaped I thought it was both an exhaust, and intake pipe, but upon closer inspection I realized it's a single pipe. My guess is it's an intake pipe for an older furnace that was there. I never did find where it ends in the house, so the day before the roofers come I'm ripping it out and capping the hole in the wall. I'll be happy to get rid of that eyesore.

Thanks for the tips in your post!

[Guido]

Guido,

re-read my post #11 as I edited my 2nd paragraph to correct an error of calling the fascia soffit by mistake.
Thanks! Now it makes more sense. :)

I found a few places on the net that specified one square foot per 150 square feet of ceiling space or one square foot per 300 square feet of ceiling space where a complete vapor barrier exists at the bottom of the insulation.

I don't think I have a vapour barrier, so 1200 square feet / 150 = 8 square feet of venting. It says to divide the venting 50/50 between intake (soffit) and exhaust. So 4 sq ft of soffit vents doesn't seem like much. Hopefully I already have that.

I may need to install an extra roof vent or two. I don't think I'll go to the expense of a ridge vent.

I wonder how any roof vent works under 6 inches of snow.
:confused:

[Phelps]

Guido,

Poking your head up in the attic and checking out what the underside of the roof sheathing looks like speaks volumes. If you see it all splotched with black mildew, and run marks down the rafters, you know you have a moisture/vapor barrier/ventilation problem and/or induction of non-vented exhaust of bathfan or even a gas water heater, for example. But...if the underside looks good, you really don't need to change anything, I don't think.

[Mr Fixit eh]

Don't forget that the recommendations that you see for ventilation (1 sq. ft per 150 or 300 sq. ft) is for Net Free Area, so check the specs on the vents that you're looking at.

Also, plywood can be deceiving--it can visually look unstained, etc, and still be structurally weakened. One of the best tests is to get up on the roof and walk around--carefully, of course. You will quickly find any weak spots.

[Guido]

Good advice on the Net Free Area.

Phelps - I know as a fact the roof leaks and there are stains on the rafters, but I don't see any mildew. The leaks are from around the chimney and one of the vents. I have buckets up there now, to tie me over until the snow melts.

I think when I get quotes for the roof I'll ask about the vents. If they calculate I need more on the roof I'll get them to put in an extra one or two since now is the time to do it. Then I can work on the soffits myself at a later date.

With the tips from this thread I'm a lot more confident in finding a reputable contractor who won't try to scam me when it comes to vents, insulation, and the bathroom exhausts.

[Mr Fixit eh]

If you plan on venting the bath exhaust onto the roof, you might ask them to quote on that, as well.

[Guido]

Definitely the bathroom vent will have to be relocated.
right now the 2 exhaust pipes stop about 6 inches directly below a square roof vents (each) so if have the pipe extended through the roof then for sure I'll have to add 2 roof vents to replace the ones being converter to bath vents. Hopefully they don't charge big bucks to install vents.

I was going through a Home Hardware catalog and saw the plastic channels that get installed at the bottom of the rafters to leave an air space between the insulation and sheathing - and the cheapest one was $1.79! Definitely much easier (and cheaper) to go that route than cut up plywood or chicken wire to hold back the insulation. For some reason I thought they were a lot more than that. Finally some good news. hahaha

[Mr T]

You can get them at home depot or lowes for half that price. (one is decent priced, the other store is very expensive. The styrofoam ones are much easier to work with in my opinion. (see my previous post about the roofing nails that poke through your plywood holding them inplace while you staple) Much harder to poke them through the plastic.

[Mr Fixit eh]

Thanks, Mr. T, but past experience has shown that once we've paid shipping costs to Canada, plus the exchange, it'd be even more expensive for us to take advantage of the good ol' USA prices :-0.........makes me want to move on down south every time I hear a price comparison though.....

[Mr Fixit eh]

The other thing I was going to add, Guido, is that if you're going to all the effort of adding insulation, plastic channels, soffit vents, etc, etc, etc....you should make sure you spend some time and money to make sure that you thoroughly seal the building envelope at the attic ceiling. You'll want to carefully seal around pipes, electrical wires, stacks, etc. Adding attic insulation without first addressing the air leakage will not save you nearly as much in energy dollars.

[Guido]

Actually it's not that bad here. I went to HD last night and they had the soffit vent spacers (or whatever they're called) as shown in the photos. They cost $13.49 for 10, but I didn't realize that you're supposed to split them, so really you have 20.

Yeah it makes sense to fix any other air leaks while I'm in there.

Some other prices off the top of my head:

Roof vent, 50sq in: $8
Rubber flashing for pipe exiting roof: $10
Shingles (cheap bundle): $16
Insulation Batt, R12: $27
Ridge Vent: $75 for 40'
14" Turbine: $45

I think the prices are reasonable, I just hope the roof installers don't charge 300% for the material they use.

[Mr Fixit eh]

There is usually mark-up built into the estimate, but because the larger companies buy in bulk, the difference between what you'd pay at HD and what they charge is not usually too bad. Smaller mom-and-pop operations will shop at HD and mark-up the materials 10 - 15%.

When looking for a roofing company, do make sure that they can provide you with references -- check them out -- and *proof* of both liability insurance and Worker Safety Insurance Board insurance coverage for their workers.

Since you're in Toronto, you might want to check out the Mike Holmes website. He maintains a list of Mike-Holmes-approved contractors

[Guido]

10-15% markup I can deal with. It's not bad compared to other businesses.

I will check out the Mike Holmes website. I plan on getting 3-4 quotes, even from HD and Sears becuase I have a feeling that they give excellent warranty service.

I'll keep you guys updated - thanks for the advice!!!

PS - here are the photos I forgot to attach with my previous post.

[Guido]

In case anyone cares - I got my first quote... from Sears:
All prices CAD
5/12 Hip roof. 27.5' X 47.5'

51 bundles @ $57: $2907. Includes removal of 1 layer and installation.
Removing 2nd layer: $408
Disposal of 102 bundles: $918
4 Vents, (75 sq. in): 108
2 Stack vent flash: $43
1 bathroom vent: $37 (actually, this is not a bathroom but a plumbing vent)
25lb fiberglass on all eaves, 3ft: no charge
He said felt paper is not necessary and doesn't affect warranty. If I want felt it would be $105
Chimney flashing: no charge promotion (regular $115)

Total of $4264, including their current promotion of 15% off labour. This is per side (semi-detached) and my neighbor MUST do it at the same time (liability issues).

This is waaaaay more than I expected. Actually, I was hoping for under $2000. that's nuts - I hope it's only a Sears thing and smaller roofers can do it for less.

And this doesn't include correcting my bathroom fans that vent through a regular roof vent!

[Guido]

I just talked to the Home Depot guy over the phone and he said with the dimensions of my roof 51 bundles is too many.

He also said Sears Canada is having problems honoring their warranty because of the takeover from Sears USA. Don't know how true this is but it's funny because the Sears rep said no one comes close to matching Sears' warranty.

[Mr Fixit eh]

What is the warranty-rating for these shingles? 25-yr shingles will be quite a bit more expensive than 15-year shingles.

I'm surprised by your quote-usually labour is about equal to the cost of materials in a job like this. I wonder if they've rolled the cost of labour into the materials cost?

You'll want to get more quotes.

Based on prices in my area, I would expect to pay between 5 and 6 thousand dollars for your roof

[Phelps]

In case anyone cares - I got my first quote... from Sears:
All prices CAD
5/12 Hip roof. 27.5' X 47.5'

51 bundles @ $57: $2907. Includes removal of 1 layer and installation.
Removing 2nd layer: $408
Disposal of 102 bundles: $918
4 Vents, (75 sq. in): 108
2 Stack vent flash: $43
1 bathroom vent: $37 (actually, this is not a bathroom but a plumbing vent)
25lb fiberglass on all eaves, 3ft: no charge
He said felt paper is not necessary and doesn't affect warranty. If I want felt it would be $105
Chimney flashing: no charge promotion (regular $115)

Total of $4264, including their current promotion of 15% off labour. This is per side (semi-detached) and my neighbor MUST do it at the same time (liability issues).

This is waaaaay more than I expected. Actually, I was hoping for under $2000. that's nuts - I hope it's only a Sears thing and smaller roofers can do it for less.

And this doesn't include correcting my bathroom fans that vent through a regular roof vent!

$57...a BUNDLE? Not per "square"? I must have gone off into la la land for the last 20 years or so. I was paying about $27... a SQUARE (which is 100 square feet... or the same as 3 bundles of shingles), for fiberglass shingles, when I did roofing in Texas. But then again, these were your low weight fiberglass shingle, and not the more pricey heavy weight asphalt shingle.

But that is what is really jacking up your cost are the price of those shingles.

I am curious now. I am going to ask one of our local Menards what their bottom of the barrel fiberglass shingle sells for per bundle (or per "square"), these days. Curious minds have to know. :)

[Mr T]

He said that it is $57 per bundle installed.. Meaning $114 or $171 (154USD)per square installed (depending how many packs makes a square of his shingle.) I agree, a odd way to price a roof.. (sounds like how walmart would do a roof if they did.. site unseen.)

Guido, how does he handle bad wood?

Get a 2nd opinion (from a dedicated roofer)
And dont show him this Sears one.

[Guido]

He said that it is $57 per bundle installed.. Meaning $114 or $171 (154USD)per square installed (depending how many packs makes a square of his shingle.) I agree, a odd way to price a roof.. (sounds like how walmart would do a roof if they did.. site unseen.)

That's correct. The $57 includes material (1 bundle), stripping 1 layer off the roof, and installation.
It's a 25 year organic shingle. I was told 15 year doesn't exist anymore, and 20 year is not being manufactured anymore, but they're still in warehouses being used when requested. Something about the gov't trying to reduce landfill waste by allowing only long-term shingles. Fiberglass would save me $2 a bundle.



Guido, how does he handle bad wood?

Plywood @ $2.65 per sq. ft.
Boards @ $4.35 per LN. ft.


Get a 2nd opinion (from a dedicated roofer)
And dont show him this Sears one.
Definitely. I'm going to get about 5 quotes, Sears, HD, and 3 smaller guys.

Mr. Fixit: Maybe I'm way off base, but I'm expecting to pay no more than $2000 based on "guestimates" from people who have had their roofs done by "smaller" guys.

[Phelps]

Good luck to ya, Guido.

Roofing is one of those areas in the construction business where, if you can manage to both find someone reputable, AND who is hungry, for one reason or another...you can come out smelling like a rose...compared to if you had the largest yellow page ad guys come out and do it.

Keep us posted.

[Guido]

Good luck to ya, Guido.

Roofing is one of those areas in the construction business where, if you can manage to both find someone reputable, AND who is hungry, for one reason or another...you can come out smelling like a rose...compared to if you had the largest yellow page ad guys come out and do it.

Keep us posted.
I got another quote from one of the larger independant roofers (not Sears, etc) and it's almost exactly the same as Sears - $4400 for my side of the roof alone. Only difference is he's felting the entire roof, which Sears isn't.
Now I'm getting scared. I was expecting $2k can EASILY do it. Maybe it's time to call ABC Roofing/Electrical/Gardening/Catering Service?
;)

Funny thing - the HD estimator so far made 3 appointments to come see the house, and cancelled all 3. I haven't heard from him since Friday so I don't know what's going on with HD. The big guys don't necessarily have the best service.

I'll keep everyone updated with my quotes and adventures.

[Mr Fixit eh]

Well, Guido, you're an adventurous kinda guy....I was in your boat....looking up at a simple carport roof about 14 ft x 34 ft with no protrusions and 1 layer of existing shingles. Now I do not like heights, so I can't stand to work on my 2-storey home roof, so I would have preferred to have the work contracted out. I got 3 quotes, and the price was between 1,500 and $2,000 for 25 year shingles. I was hoping to pay $1,000.

So, what to do.......

I talked to a 25 year veteran contractor friend who takes on extra jobs on weekends. I asked him to quote the job, and it was $1,500. Then he suggested that if I would help him, the labour cost would decrease. I purchased my own shingles and got a top-quality shingle at a sale price. I borrowed a utility trailer and hauled off the old shingles myself. We spent 6 hours together on a Friday pm/evening plus a 12 hour day on Saturday (he also cut down major pine tree branches threatening to turn my roof into a jungle and fixed a roof vent). Total price for the entire job, including taxes, labour, and everything was $950.00.

It was a great experience and I learned tons......and I got a terrific workout to boot.

So you might consider the option.

[Guido]

You know... my neighbor said if he were younger he would do it himself, and I wouldn't mind helping him. I don't think it's difficult once you know the basics and take your time. And it's a super-simple roof, no dormers, gable ends, etc.
I'm sure most roofers wouldn't allow an assistant for liability reasons.
If I find a retired guy who will let me help him it'll take us 3 weeks to do it.

I'm trying to get some quotes from smaller guys. I'll make sure they clearly specify what's included, and I'll take the day off work to "supervise". It's not the right attitude, but if the roof only lasts 15 years compared to 25, I'll be long gone when it fails. I'm sure this is what the previous owner said when he installed the existing roof.

[RobertLangDirect]

You may want to get some 3/4" thick plywood and use it to run between joist, lest you fall through a ceiling at some point.

Been there and did that so I know how easy it is to do.

Robert

[Phelps]

Robert,

You fell through where? Were you up on the roof and fell through the roof, or where you in the attic and fell through the attic? I know a handyman who was up in an attic and he fell completely through it and landed on the living room floor. I got sent over there to put up new sheetrock and finish it off, as I guess sheetrock repairs were not really his forte'.

[Mr Fixit eh]

You should ask for proof of adequate liability insurance and if he has employees, you should demand to see proof that he has paid-up Workers Safety Insurance Board (WSIB) insurance. Or make sure that you have an umbrella coverage on your homeowner's insurance that will cover you for 3-5 million dollars. I would be a really raw deal to save 1-2K$, and end up with a multi-million dollar lawsuit because a dipstick worker ends up falling and killing or paralyzing himself -- a very real possibility.

Also, make sure that he uses fall-protection gear -- it's required by law.

[Guido]

You should ask for proof of adequate liability insurance and if he has employees, you should demand to see proof that he has paid-up Workers Safety Insurance Board (WSIB) insurance.
You're not the fist person to tell me this - it must be important. But I hate the fact that they're the "pros" yet they can sue me if they screw up. Even if they show me proof, I have no way of knowing if they're valid.
But you do raise a good point - I'll see what reaction I get when I ask.


Also, make sure that he uses fall-protection gear -- it's required by law.
I don't think I can tell them how to do their job, but I plan on being there when they do the work, so I'll have my camera out.

Thanks for the tips!

[Mr Fixit eh]

I don't think I can tell them how to do their job, but I plan on being there when they do the work, so I'll have my camera out.
In Ontario, at least, it's the law. A WSIB inspector will shut them down in a heartbeat, if they're not using fall protection. So chances are ...if they're not usting fall protection, they are not covered by WSIB ....very large potential for lawsuits if someone gets hurt. Yes, it sucks, but be smart and protect yourself.

[Phelps]

What is "fall protection"? I have never seen it, to be honest with you. Around here, roofers scale steep roofs over 8/12 pitch roofs with no toe boards. One day I saw this roofer on such a roof, at the edge of the 2nd floor steep roof, pulling up sheets of wafer board! I thought, "Is that guy nuts?"

There is an ad on tv right now that shows guys hanging a billboard sign and one of the workers falls and on the way down, just before hitting he has all these round air bags that expand out and cushion his fall. I laughed when I saw this commercial...while at the same time muttering how clever such a thing would be. Now after reading your post...is that real? Or, are roofers supposed to lay mattresses all over the ground? Or, tie themselves off with ropes around chimneys etc.?

[deejoe]

What is "fall protection"? I have never seen it, to be honest with you. There is an ad on tv right now that shows guys hanging a billboard sign and one of the workers falls and on the way down, just before hitting he has all these round air bags that expand out and cushion his fall. I laughed when I saw this commercial...while at the same time muttering how clever such a thing would be. Now after reading your post...is that real? Or, are roofers supposed to lay mattresses all over the ground? Or, tie themselves off with ropes around chimneys etc.?
***********************************************
DUH!!! no ,they don't lay mattresses on the ground
"Safety belts and lanyards are used to tie off securely to prevent falls.
And all provinces in Canada have strict guidelines in their useage.
Severe penalties (fines,etc)can occur if these safety rules are not adhered to.

[Phelps]

We can live without stuff like "Duh".

[Guido]

Safety belts and lanyards are used to tie off securely to prevent falls.

Phelps asked about fall protection, not fall prevention.
:rolleyes:

[Phelps]

Guido,

An observant catch there. ;)

[Mr Fixit eh]

Here are some detailshttp://www.csao.org/UploadFiles/magazine/vol12no4/fallprot.htm

[deejoe]

The BEST fall protection IS fall prevention.
Duh!

[Mr Fixit eh]

Like Phelps said, I think we can do without the "DUH" shenanigans. We try to cultivate a climate of respect amongst our members, Deejoe. This is a place where we ALL learn.

[deejoe]

"Duh" will now be "eh'
feel better now? eh?

[Guido]

Here are some detailshttp://www.csao.org/UploadFiles/magazine/vol12no4/fallprot.htm
Thanks for all the info!
So far I'm down to $2800 The highest I got was $5600!!!
I've had peope tell me my roof is 2/12, 4/12, and 5/12. I measured it and it's exactly 3.5/12. One guy told me I need 3 vents. Another guy said 5.

Only thing I'm not sure about is if fiberglass or organic shingles are better. People are pushing fiberglass, but I'm not sure.

[Guido]

Down to $2600 - negotiable.
Finally we're going in the right direction.