installing a mainpanel

[Anonymous]

Hello

I am wanting to install a main panel (100amp 16 space) with circuit breakers. The circuitry is this:

From the meter I have 3 leads going to the top of a 400 amp disconnect throw switch. there are three 200 amp cartridge cartridge fuses inline. on the load side of the switch there are 3 wires on the left leg 2wires on center leg and 3 on the right.

One set of three goes to another lone disconnect(200amp) nothing on the load side and switch is off.

another set of three goes into a raceway that is 6' long and 8" square which connects seven other disconnects all at 200amps each. all of these are off also

There is also one wire each from the left and right legs that power an old 60 amp fuse panel that runs the lights, furnaces, outlets, etc. it has no more room.

I would like to use that lone disconnect as the feed to this new panel. can this be done? I had an electrician friend come and I believe he measured: left leg 208 to ground center 0 to ground and left 208 to ground, measuring between each I believe was 228? somewhere in there.
I asked him to put in a circuit box but he wanted more than I can afford and couldn't do it for sometime. I just need to run some 240v 20 amp circuits off it for compressor, tablesaw, and planer.


Thanks for any help.
John

[Wgoodrich]

How much of these sub panels are you going to delete? I am understanding several are not being used.

It would help a lot if you provided a picture of this set up and the distance of each feeder from that 400 amp main to each sub panel you plan to keep using.

It would also help to tell us if this is a commercial building and for what use and how many separate buildings legally exist in this structure divided by a minimum of a two hour fire wall or better.

Has anyone done a commercial demand load of this total structure served by this one service and is there any other separate services serving this one building.

How many conductors are for each feeder to each sub panel.

What is the voltage and phase configuration of this service.

Probably much more questions before we can get a plan together but this is a good start if you can provide pictures both overall of complete service and as many sub panels as you can in a picture and close ups inside the main service disconnect and sub panels and inside the duct sytem so we can see what we are dealing with.

I know this is a lot but you have a lot to consider in this design.

Curious

Wg

[johnb]

Pictures are posted here:

http://www.kidwerks.org/electrical/electric.html

This is an industrial building, used to be a small tractor company, then a couple of other small businesses. There is another half of the building which is storage. They are divided by a cinder block wall

I don't need any of the subpanels except one that I can run a circuit breaker panel off of.

I don't know about a load demand but there are two services as shown in the pics. one is for the storage side

Most of the sub panels have 3 wires all going to the line side of the switch. 1 panel has 4 wires; 3 to the line side and one that connects to the box and goes to the ground/nuetral cluster of wires(these are all white)

Thanks Johnb

[Wgoodrich]

COPIED EMAIL SENT TO ME ATTEMPTING TO KEEP ALL INFO ON THIS POSTED SUBJECT.

Hello WGoodrich,

I posted to a site last night in which you responded. I have provided
pictures at this link:

http://www.kidwerks.org/electrical/electric.html

I hope they provide enough visual. In answer to your other questions,

1) Q: How much of these sub panels are you going to delete? I am
understanding several are not being used.

A:They are all off at this time and don't need to be used. Only one would I
like to use to connect my new 100amp panel to.

2) Q: It would also help to tell us if this is a commercial building and
for what use and how many separate buildings legally exist in this
structure divided by a minimum of a two hour fire wall or better.

A: It is zoned industrial. there are two halves to the building I am in one
and the other is storage. They are divided by a block wall

3) Q: Has anyone done a commercial demand load of this total structure
served by this one service and is there any other separate services serving
this one building.

A: don't know about demand load there are two services here one for the
otherside. but it enters in my space(shown in pics)

4) Q: How many conductors are for each feeder to each sub panel.

A: 3

Thanks for your help

--

John Butuso

[Wgoodrich]

1) Q: How much of these sub panels are you going to delete? I am
understanding several are not being used.

A:They are all off at this time and don't need to be used. Only one would I
like to use to connect my new 100amp panel to.

REPLY;
After looking at your wiring it is my opinion that you need to perform a rather extensive electrical house cleaning deleting all that you can cleaning up quite a mess.



2) Q: It would also help to tell us if this is a commercial building and
for what use and how many separate buildings legally exist in this
structure divided by a minimum of a two hour fire wall or better.

A: It is zoned industrial. there are two halves to the building I am in one
and the other is storage. They are divided by a block wall

REPLY;
You need to check local and state laws involved in this project. In my state this type building is ruled to be a class one structure requiring an engineer to submit a set of remodling plans to the State Administrative Building Commissoner's office. They then will issue state design release to the local building commissioner and inspectors. Then the Code Enforcement office looks over the prints for remodling and if all is well meeting all Codes then Code Enforcement Office then allows for permits to be issued and project to proceed. Contact you local inspector's office before you get yourself into too much trouble for violating State and local laws.



3) Q: Has anyone done a commercial demand load of this total structure
served by this one service and is there any other separate services serving
this one building.

A: don't know about demand load there are two services here one for the
otherside. but it enters in my space(shown in pics)

REPLY;
It is my understanding the major part of this building is not being used and you are planning to use a part of the existing building. Again contact you Code Enforcement Office to make sure you have all your ducks in a row before you commit to anything and certainly before you start work that may get you in trouble and at the least cost you much money in penalties or materials you can not use.

Sounds like you have enough service to do as you discribed but only if you clean up the wiring quite a bit. I see in your pictures that all these sub panels and inside the ducting etc. improper connections such as multiple conductors connected to a lug designed for only one conductor. Line and load in same conduit. etc.



4) Q: How many conductors are for each feeder to each sub panel.

A: 3

REPLY;
This is a major concern to me. This service looks like a straight 480 volt three phase system on one meter and a possible 208 three phase system on the other meter. Right now we don't know. Take a voltage tester and measure from a non ground to each hot wire then measure for voltage between each hot conductor in that main service disconnect. Then test for voltage levels in that second service also so we have an idea what you have available. We don't want you burning things out and want to make sure you have a neutral in this service. Look at the top of the riser where the wires come out of the weatherhead. Count how many insulated wires are coming out of each weatherhead, tell us what you count.

Looks like for now you should be able to cut off many of those unused disconnects getting that main disconnect and only those panels being used left on the wall or connected. Then we need to address how to make a multiple wire connection of these feeders to only boxes planned to be used now. Then we can research how much load is demanded on each feeder and how to make those feeder connections. I am thinking maybe a duct with a keytap to make these tap connections to the remaining disconnects planned to be used.

Curious

Wg

[johnb]

WG,

Yes, you are right it is a nightmare of wiring. The reason for that probably lies in the fact that there is no requirement for permits for electrical here. Already asked.

When my friend checked the volatages on the main load side I believe they were 208 on each outside leg and zero in the center going to ground on each and 228 between each lead. Not 100% recalling, but will recheck


will post in a while
thanks
john

[johnb]

Also forgot to mention:

There are 4 wires in each weather head 3 large and 1 smaller and all the smallerones are connected and connect to the guy wire cable that goes to the pole for support. it then connects to the center terminal on only one of the three transformers.

Thanks
john

[Wgoodrich]

Your voltage reading report has to be off a bit. You are resembling a 208 wye yet you are also discribing a corner grounded delta.

Check to see for sure if you have 240 volt to ground on the two legs and 0 volts to ground on the third leg. Then measure from hot leg to hot leg to hot leg and see if you get 240 volts between each hot leg.

Your service so far is not making sense. I have never seen a corner grounded delta with a grounded center leg and a neutral.

We have to know what each hot leg measures to ground and then the voltage reading between each hot leg being hot leg to hot leg readings measuring between all combinations between those hot legs.

Wg

[johnb]

Sorry it took so long to get back to ya, but I'm back.

the readings on the disconnect switch I want to connect to are:

left leg to center leg 252v
left leg to right leg 252v
center leg to right leg 252v

from left leg to ground 126v
from center to ground 216v
from right to ground 126v

there is also a white ground wire in this disconnect switch connected to a lug mounted to the inside side of the box
all of these lines come from the back of the electric meter except the ground which is staked outside

[Wgoodrich]

You have a 240 volt three phase high leg. DO NOT USE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE THAT HIGH LEG 240 VOLT TO GROUND FOR ANY 120 VOLT CIRCUIT. The high leg is designed only for 240 volt usage.

This type three phase service is normally used in small commercial where motors are commonly used. The three phase allows for savings in initial cost and replacement motors.

Three phase commonly have a sweep meter called a demand meter. This demand meter is an additional charge causing three phase to cost more by charging you extra to have the heavy equipment for the heavy loads associated to three phase. This deman sweep meter is charged to your whether you use electricity or not, kind of like equipment rental [transformers].

In your area you may or may not have the sweep meter.

Hope this helps

Wg