Outside Shutoff Problem?

[davep]

Couple of days ago I had to re-run the water lines going to the outside spicket. I leave the spicket open with the inside shutoff valve closed during the winter since I'm in Virginia. After running the new lines I shut the outside spicket off and turned on the shutoff valve inside to test my joints under pressure. I then opened the spicket and everything seemed fine.

Today, just for giggles, decided to test it again as I'm finishing my basement and want to know of problems before dry walling. Well, once again I shut the outside spicket off and turn the shutoff valve inside the house on. Left it under pressure for a while. Suddenly I heard a subtle noise and then a continuous noise. Went outside and the outside spicket was wide open with water coming out. This after being under pressure for about 3 hours.

There is nobody that could have turned it on, so I'm trying to figure out what might have caused the spicket to open on it's own??? This is standards round style not the 1/4 turn style. I don't seem to have any leaks anywhere. Just don't get it.

Weird???

thanks, dp

[Wgoodrich]

A proper outside spigot properly installed will have an anit freeze design. The outside spigot has a long shaft from the outside handle the actually shuts off the spigot valve located inside the building where it is designed not to freeze. Then the water from that inside valve connected through your outside spigot to your outside handle then is designed to self drain that portion of the outside spigot that passes through the outside wall. This leaves the pipe going outside drained without water so it can not freeze. No further inside valves are needed nor required for this to be protected from freezing.

Problem; If you leave a garden hose connected to the outside spigot outside by the valve handle the outside spigot can not properly drain causing it to freeze and burst.

Either you are not installing the proper outside spigot or you are not aware that the hose must be disconnected for the outside spigot to drain from inside out. YOu mentioned a second valve. This second valve should not be needed but if installed it would have to be installed inside the structure before the piping connects to the outside spigot.

I suspect your outside spigot could not properly drain thus froze. Then as water pressure pressed on the frozen part it thawed the frozen water out and allowed the spigot to start running.

Good chance that if the above discribed happened and you left a hose connected or otherwise prevented that outside spigot to drain as designed you will be replacing that bursted new outside spigot.

An outside spigot's valve is actually located inside the house allowing the rest of the spigot to drain as long as the hose is not connected to the outside spigot.

Hope this helps

Wg

[davep]

I think I understand what you are saying. However, I wasn't actually replacing the outside spigot. The outside spigot can be turned on/off on the outside. I then have a 2 shutoff valves (right term?) inside the house, one for each of two spigots. Normally as was the case this year, I open the outside spigots, disconnect any hoses and turn off the inside valves thus draining the lines.

What I actually was doing here though was re-route the inside copper line to one of the spigots. The spigot and @8 feet of copper coming into the house from that spigot were not touched other than to reconnect the old copper to the new copper. When I did this a while back and tested it everything seemed fine, no leaks and the outside spigot worked. I re-did my pre-winter ritual of opening and closing valves.

Today, I decided to test it again. I closed the outside spigot and turned on the inside valve thus putting the line under pressure. I was inside but nereby the wall where the spigot is and would have heard it if it was on and water was coming out. Suddenly I heard a sound and realized the spigot was wide-open and water was coming out. Nobody could have even gotten to it as it is underneath my deck and behind my boat. There wasn't much water yet so I knew it had just come on.

Is there any way that if the pipe is not draining properly even though I'm doing everything right that somehow it isn't draining thoroughly and when I put it under pressure somehow it forced the spigot open????

Very confused and NOT crazy (yet)

thanks, dp

[Wgoodrich]

If you outside spigot is about 2' long then you are not doing everything right. This outside spigot is to be installed with a down ward slope high side being inside low side being outside. There is no need for any other valves. You simply turn off the outside spigot and disconnect the hose and you are winterized. This is only true if you have a downward slope to the water will drain out the pipe and only if the garden hose and any attachments are disconnected outside.

You say you did all that and also added a valve further into the house. Problem is heat seeks cold. As the weather outside gets cold the water remaining inside the pipe from the valve you have shut off then travels up the pipe if level or upward turn slightly. The water then gets to the cold enough to freeze a water bridge inside that pipe. This can only happen if your oustide spigot is left on yet an inside valve is turned off. The water between that valve and the outside spigot will seek its own level allowing air behind it the the heat seeks cold steps in and draws that water to the outside enough to freeze a bridge that tends to grow until the pipe can stop water flow and even burst your pipe.

Make sure you outside spigot is pointed downward so it wiil drain any water inside that spigot to the outside thus draining that outside spigot. Then if you feel you need to use that inside valve by all means do so but only if you have the outside spigot also turned off so the heat seeks cold effect can not happen past the valve built into the inside end of that spigot. Again chances are either your outside spigot or your plumbing between the valve and the spigot has been damaged.

You need to think out what is being said. How else can a water pipe freeze delaying water from running out?

The damage may have happened at the spigot valve deleting the ability of that spigot to shut off water. That part is suspected by what you are saying.

Just my thoughts

Wg

[davep]

I get it now. Bit slow on the uptake. Most of the terms and concepts in the responses on the forums are a bit foreign to me therefore I almost always need more explanation. But heh I'm learning and finishing my basement (properly) at the same time.

Fortunately no damage was done to the plumbing and I'll leave the outside spigots off from now on during the winter months.

Can't tell you how much this forum has helped me and saved me $$ by arming me with the right knowledge.

Thanks again, dp

[Wgoodrich]

YOu may be fooled about no damage. This outside spigot is a specially designed spigot. To test for leakage you need to turn on the inside spigot leaving the outside spigot off. Watch for water leaking inside your home.

Then turn on your spigot outside again watch for water leaking inside your home.

Often times the spigot will freeze and burst the spigot between the built in valve of that outside spigot and the outside. If this happens you can shut off the outside spigot and no leake inside the house will appear yet when you turn on the oustide spigot with a hose attached and a spray attachment on the end of the hose shut off then water starts spraying into the house. This can happen because of the pipe containing that outside spigot built in valve is without pressure and is allowed to drain water out if angled downward to the outside. Then if back pressure is put on the spigot outside a crack in that drain part of the outside spigot dry when shut off becomes pressurized forcing water out through a split in that part of the spigot that is used as a spigot drain when the spigot is shut off.

Try both ways with the outside hose blocked. If no leaks then you should be fine. You may think you are fine yet later find a leak when it is too late. Better to check now before you work inside on your remodel.

Good Luck

Wg