Kitchen-Garage Electrical Layout

[SharpT]

Well I have finished an initial layout of my kitchen-garage.

My main service rated panel is 100Amps. I posted my load calcs earlier, my home requires about 90 Amps.

Don't have many questions right now, just curious if anyone has any suggestions or comments.

SharpT

http://www.homewiringandmore.com/storage/forum/KitchenElectricalLayout.jpg
A karger version of this image can be found at
http://www.homewiringandmore.com/storage/forum/KitchenElectricalLayout2.jpg

[Wgoodrich]

Nice drawing helps a lot. Picture worth a thousand words. I have one question slight concern and a couple of suggestions to better make the wife happy and a suggestion that may make your pocket book happy. Whew that about made me to tire to go on. But for you what the heck your worth it considering all the trouble you did on your drawing. Just kidding a bit.

The microwave hood combo may pull pretty close to the 15 amp branch circuit. May be worth your while to also make that a 20 amp 12 awg branch circuit dedicated. The dedicated whether 15 amp or 20 amp is a NEC rule but the 20 amp is a suggestion.

The counter receptacle all must be GFI protected. Two 20 amp GFI protected branch circuits for kitchen counter receptacles are required as a minimum. You can add the receptacles in your dining, nook or pantry without adding load to those counter recetpacles. The cook seldom will use the dining receptacles while he or she uses the counter receptacles. Kind of like an either or life style. This is a money saving no loss design combining the dining, nook and pantry on with the counter receptacles just advisory. Next to consider would be that a cook will often pile all cooking equipment with resistance heat, coffee pot, toaster, fryer, electric skillet all in the same spot on the counter. If you redesigned your branch circuits over the counter using the same two counter small appliance branch circuits and designing so that half the recepatcles on both sides of the kitchen over the counter on the two branch circuits alternating with every other receptacle then you would have 40 amp worth of receptacles within reach of that cook no matter where they stood an you still used the same two branch circuits just wired those receptacles circuit A then circuit B then circuit A then circuit B. Again just a suggestion not a Code requirement.

Then I noticed you installed two branch circuits one to each your dishwasher and disposal. A disposal usually seldom runs more than 30 seconds or so. This normally would not affect a branch circuit that served both the dishwasher and garbage disposal allowing you to use one less branch circuit than you are now. Then you could add that free branch circuit to serve some of the counter receptacles maybe making an alternating receptacle circuit design such as circuits ABCABC for each third receptacle on the same branch circuit serving that counter area. Remember the counter area is the most heavily used 120 volt receptacles in your house. Again just a suggestion not a Code rule. Before you combine the dishwasher and disposal on the same 20 amp branch circuit you might want to confirm that your AHJ [electrical inspector] will accept these two fastened in place appliances to be shared on the same 20 amp branch circuit as a noncoincidental load. If the AHJ has no problem you should be fine doing so. I have seen this wired this way sharing the dishwasher and disposal on the same 20 amp branch circuit for decades and have yet heard of a problem doing so. Again just a suggestion not a rule of the NEC.

Looks like you did your home work.

Congrats

Wg

[6pack]

How doe's one view drawing by poster?

[imported_selfhelpadmin]

wannabee you should now be able to view the picture, I copied it over to our own server space and edited the image location within the post. When a someone uses a free hosting provider , often you cannot display a image from that host when pulled from outside of the site, because the host prevents that from happening so you cannot use their resources without the benefit to them of having there ads displayed. In this case it appears that some could see the image posted and others could not, I was one who couldn't but was to locate where it was and copy it. I also resized it a bit to reduce the size of a scroll bar created with a large image.

[SharpT]

I appreciate the comments, and also thanks for uploading the image. By the way each square is approximately 3" square.

1. Good idea to go ahead and use 12/2 for the microwave/vent. Heck, in a few years, someone might invent a new appliance that will cook my frozen cheese enchiladas in 20 seconds that runs on 15+Amps.

2. Does each receptacle need to be GFCI. I thought that if the first one is GFCI, then the rest down stream are protected?

3. Thanks for the suggestion of alternating receptacles. I think I will use 12/3 for the SA circuits, install a junction box to the left of the panel and send the 12/3 to the left and right side of the kitchen alternating receptacles.

4. I plan on keeping the 12/3 to the dishwasher/disposal. At least I'll have an extra circuit over there in case an additional fixed appliance is added later.

5. I am also thinking of adding some under cabinet lighting on the left side, maybe a switch near the disposal.

I am still a few months away from starting the kitchen remodel, but am in the process of procuring all the materials ahead of time, so the kitchen is down as short as possible.

Again, thanks for the suggestions.

SharpT

[Anonymous]

Nice drawing also.Since you mentioned any suggestions and since moderators have enough to do answering electrical requirement's ETC. In looking and unable to see remainder of house layout, curious if you have 3 way switching leading to new kitchen & garage area,from entrance area be it Din Rm or LIV RM?May want to give this thought while walls open?If so ignore, otherwise nice to leave that area without having to walk across room to turn (SAY) living room off or on. Also if ajoining hallway has no outlet good time to pop one in.Had mentioned future U/C light's, did'nt see light over sink? body casts big shadow when standing infront of sink!Forgot to mention if 3 way not present from ajoining room may be able(MAY) to install by fishing from attic or basement. Suggestions may not pertain to your situation but just wanted to mention, by the looks of your drawing you don't need my help. 1-Quetion to moderator is outlet required to left of counter.(corner area) or is this a broom closetETC. NICE

[SharpT]

OK, well I modified the layout a bit. Thanks for all the suggestions.

Added light over sink, added under cabinet lighting, added small floor plan of house for reference. Added garage receptacle, outdoor receptacles, and outdoor lighting. Also added a hallway receptacle, and a dining room receptacle that I will have access to install. Converted to 12/3 for alternating small appliance receptacles, upgrade MW to 12/2.

Not shown in the drawing, but there is no light in the front door hallway right now, but there is a hallway switch to outdoor lighting. I plan to reach this wire (not switch) and redirect it to hallway sconce lighting. Then I will add switch next to fridge and in hallway to activate the motion activated outdoor lighting.

http://www.homewiringandmore.com/storage/forum/KitchenElectricalLayout3a.jpg

A larger picture can be displayed by clicking on this link..
http://www.homewiringandmore.com/storage/forum/KitchenElectricalLayout3.jpg

Again thanks for the suggestions, though this project is growing each day. :o

SharpT

[Wgoodrich]

SharpT, You need to be careful with this split 120 volt GFI protected receptacle or receptacles on a multiwire branch circuit.

If you install 12/3wGrnd using a multiwire branch circuit design then you will not be able to use receptacle style GFI protective devices.

A 120 volt rated GFI receptacle is allowed to be installed on the first receptacle on a branch circuit then that one GFI receptacle will protect all other normal style receptacles on the circuit as long as those following receptacles are connected to the load side of that one GFI receptacle installed at the beginning of the branch circuit.

PROBLEM, you are planning a multiwire branch circuit. A 120 volt GFI will not operate or hold without tripping when a true neutral is connected to the GFI. The GFI will pick up the odd current on that true neutral caused by that second hot wire being served by that same neutral on that mulitwire branch circuit.

Also there is a rule in the NEC that requires you to install a 240 volt double pole breaker where a multiwire branch circuit is serving both hot wires to the same receptacle device.

YOu should be able to wire the 12/3wGrnd multiwire branch circuit but you must install a double pole breaker serving those split receptacles. You also still need GFI protection. YOu should be able to use a double pole 20 amp 240 volt GFI rated breaker. This would do all you need to meet the NEC and solve the use of a neutral on a GFI circuit.

Do some planning on these undercabinet light fixtures concerning how to get the 120 volts to that light and still hide the wires and also meet the NEC requirements concerning correct style cable and subject to physical damage. YOu may want to discuss your undercab light installation with your AHJ just to be on the same page as to what he or she will accept. [exposed cable or cords]

GUEST, I see what you are talking about. SHARPT, to the left of you counter shows a box. Looks like it may be a desk or something. If this space is attached to the kitchen counter then the remember the receptacles over a kitchen counter area must be placed within 24" of any end of the counter and not more than 48" between receptacles on the long counter area. A sink, range, refrig etc. is considered to have broken that counter. Then you must again be within 24" of that end of that counter again. This means all ends of counter including those ends of counter created by the sink or llarge appliances. Looks like GUEST is pointing out what looks like a distance more than 24" including that box on the left end of your kitchen counter area. If that box is attached whether of a different level or not then is must be counted in measuring the 24" max from teh end of that counter area. I didn't see this until GUEST pointed it out in his or her post.

Hope this helps

Wg

[Anonymous]

sharp your 2nd drawing came up all messed up on puter here unable to view? Also received numerous virus notices at same time trying to view. Unfamiliar with puter other than knowing there are viruses out there and was afraid to pursue viewing your 2nd drawing. If any future posts show 2nd drawing and able to give 2cents of help, will do so. GL2U

[SharpT]

PROBLEM, you are planning a multiwire branch circuit. A 120 volt GFI will not operate or hold without tripping when a true neutral is connected to the GFI. The GFI will pick up the odd current on that true neutral caused by that second hot wire

I may not understand exactly what you mean, can you explain further. The latest Black and Decker Wiring book Kitchen section has a diagram using 12/3 for the 2 small appliance receptacle circuits, alternating outlet style, all GFCI outlets. Is it because it is on one branch? What if I don't tee the 12/3 and just make a loop around the kitchen? What if I use all GFCI outlets?

The non-service rated panel is old, and I haven't found any GFCI breakers for it, so this isn't an option. If I can't use 12/3 for SA circuit, then I will go back to two 12/2 circuits, no biggy.

Also, the box over in the corner is a tall pantry, no counter space. So I assume no additional outlet is needed.

Wannabe, about 40 people have viewed the drawing with no other reported problems. It is on a "yahoo" owned site so it should be safe. I have limited bandwidth so it will shut down from time to time. I appreciate your desire to help out.

--
SharpT

PS:
found this on the web, some tougher codes
http://www.lakecountyohio.org/commweb/Building%20Dept/NEC99.htm

Minimum wire size shall be #12 AWG Copper
No more than one (1) nonmetallic cable assembly (12/2-12/3, 10/2-10/3) through any one drilled hole in studding or joist, or through any clamp, connector or staple.
(maximum) total of ten (10) outlets per circuit
small appliance branch circuit shall be limited to four (4) outlets

[imported_selfhelpadmin]

I have trasferred the pic to the server,

wannabe
, there were no virus found at the orginal location, or when the pic was copied.

[SharpT]

PROBLEM, you are planning a multiwire branch circuit. A 120 volt GFI will not operate or hold without tripping when a true neutral is connected to the GFI. The GFI will pick up the odd current on that true neutral caused by that second hot wire


OK, I thought about this some more and think I understand. If I'm correct, a proper solution would be to run 12/3 to the first outlet say fridge outlet, then split to two 12/2 down the side. Then I could run 12/3 from fridge outlet across to first outlet on the other side, then split two 12/2 down other side of kitchen.

So question is... Is this cheaper or easier than just running two parallel 12/2 around the kitchen for small appliance circuits? I'll have to think about it.

Seems B&D is proposing bad wiring scheme.

SharpT

[Wgoodrich]

Sharpt, the link you provided are local rules concerning that jurisdiction only. Not sure the rules there implied are legal local ordinances or not. The rules that show there has nothing to do matching the National Electrical Code. Can't see their rules being a good thing in my mind. Causes confusion making your own rules. How are we supposed to promote knowledge in the electrical field when everyone rewrites in their own set of rules. Gets you coming and going lost as to where you are. Hate seing these type web sites mainly becuase of the confusion it breads for the electrical industry. Europe adopted their one electrical code nationally in their country. US promotes freedom of choice and Home rule. Guess this confusion in the electrical field is a cost of our freedom of choice where we live that we are so proud of. There is no price to high to maintain that freedom of choice though in my mind. If a local jurisdiction wants to make local rules adopted by legal process then they should have that right. However it does make our work a lot tougher. You should always check for specialty local rules. That is why I suggested you talk to your AHJ and make sure you are on the same page with the local rules that apply in your jurisdiction. Seems many jurisdictions have their own quirks in their local rules of revisions of the NEC. Just hope those rules were produced through legal due process. Many are not enforcable because of hte lack of legal due process. Do your homework.

I have heard some bad things coming from Black and Decker diy books. May work but hear of many part of their books wouldn't work or wouldn't meet code rules.

In your case if you ran 220 multiwire to a receptacle and pigtailed a single GFI receptacle connecting the pigtails to the line side of that GFI wire nutting as unused the load side of the GFI receptacle, then you can use your multiwire 12/3wGrnd making ever other receptacle on a or b circuit alternating. Wiring this way you would have to install a GFI receptacle in each receptacle location with no power out. Problem with this wiring style is not being able to use split receptacle top on one circuit bottom on second circuit. Each individual GFI receptacle can not be split top and bottom.

Your idea of 12/3wGrnd to say the refrig then splitting to two 12/2wgrnd hitting every other receptacle a / b alternating circuit style then you may have your refrig not GFI protected meeting Code but install GFI receptacle in first receptacle on each different 12/2wgrnd where it hits the next [first 12/2 receptacle box] on those circuits. This would allow the refrig not to rely on a GFI [advisable] and alow you to use one GFI receptacle on each 12/2wGrnd run from that refrig box installed on each first receptacle box then using normal receptacles in the rest of the boxes after that one GFI receptacle on that circuit.

This last paragraph will allow the GFI receptacles to protect the rest of that 120 volt circuit with the true neutral stopping on the line side of the two GFI receptacles where the true neutral won't be registered on the load side of those individual GFI receptales.

Also If you ran the 12/3wGrnd to the frig receptacle then 2 individual 12/2wGrnd cables from that frig receptacle splitting to two 120 volt runs then take the first 12/2wGrnd to the first next receptacle and install a GFI receptacle there using the load side of the GFI to run to the third receptacle on the circuit after the frig receptacle. Then run the second 12/2wGrnd from the frig receptacle where you split the multiwire branch circuit into two separte 120 volt circuits and run that second 12/2wGrnd to the second first recetpacle on the run then installing your second GFI receptacle using the load side of that GFI receptacle also going to the third receptacle on the circuit after the frig receptacle you have just ran both GFI receptacle protected 12/2wGrnd to the same receptacle box. Then you can remove both the brass colored tab and the silver colored tab on that receptacle keeping both 12/2wgrnd runs separated from each other. YOu will have to use wire nuts and pigtails connecting the pigtails to that receptacle. This would give you a split receptacle top half of receptacle protected by the first GFI receptacle 120 volt circuit and the bottom half of that same receptacle protected by the second GFI receptacle 120 volt circuit. Again this 12/3wGrnd coming from the panel must be served by a 220 volt double pole breaker in a dwelling setting but would not have to be GFI type breaker because you used the two GFI receptacles further down after you split the multiwire branch circuit.

The above is rather complicated. This is why many advise against doing this type wiring design using a shared neutral multiwire branch circuit. I suspect that if you just ran a 12/2wGrnd from a 120 volt single 20 amp breaker in your panel to your receptacles with this one 12/2wGrnd only hitting all the odd numbered receptacle on both counters and then install a second 12/2wGrnd from a second 120 volt single 20 amp breaker to all the even numbered receptacles you would have a receptacle within reach wherever you stand that is from each 20 amp branch circuit. Then install your GFI receptacle on the first receptacle on each circuit using the load side of the GFI to serve all the rest of the receptacles on that certain circuit using normal receptacles after that first GFI receptacle is installed.

By the way the NEC allows you to install as many cables through a drilled hole that you can comfortably install and pull through those drilled holes. Just remember to keep a minimum of 1 1/4" from the edge of the board you drilled.

There is no limit to the number of receptacles allowed no a circuit whether in a living area or in a small appliance branch circuit area or in a laundry or in a bathroom. YOu are just not allowed to put lighiting of fastened in place appliances on those receptacle circuits and except for special rules that appy in bathroom you are not allowed to serve other rooms with those designated small appliance branch cirucuits [kitchen,dining, nook, pantry], or the bathroom circuit or the laundry circuit.

Hope this helps

Wg

[Anonymous]

Sharp, made previous post(Guest)curious space left of sink and like light over sink. Only thing I would suggest is may want to consider switching half of front yard receptacle for Xmas light's ETC, while hall wall accesible if this is entry way. GL