Meter and Panel Replacement

[Anonymous]

Recently had a problem at meter connections. Loose connector caused arcing and failure of the lug. This is an existing 200 amp service. Had the power company cut power to the meter. Installed new meter and pan and pulled new wire to panel , simply copying what had been there. Figured since power was off , may as well change out old Federal Pacific panel too (expensive breakers). The panel is located almost directly behind the meter inside the house in a closet on the outside wall. Being just an ignorant homeowner, I knew nothing about codes or inspections. But I'm learning.
Now for my questions.
#1 What is the correct way to run the wire from the meter to the service panel (wire type,piping, acceptable fittings etc.)

#2 I am now aware that service panels do not belong in closets. Does this installation still qualify as existing since the replacement was not an upgrade in service ?

#3 If not , and the panel must be moved, won't I now have a large splice box in the closet? Or must I make all new home runs in which case, I'll have to tear up walls.

I am adding an addition to the home , which I obviously will have inspected.

The next phase of the project will probably eliminate the closet , but that is probably at least two years away.

[Wgoodrich]

YOU SAID;
#1 What is the correct way to run the wire from the meter to the service panel (wire type,piping, acceptable fittings etc.)

REPLY;
This is a wide open question. The only way that I can give you justice in answering this question is to give you a link to our homewiring web site on the 2002 NEC side that shows pictures and gives options meeting the NEC concerning a service upgrade.

http://www.homewiringandmore.com/homewiringusa/2002/maindwelling/meter/meter.html

YOU SAID;
#2 I am now aware that service panels do not belong in closets. Does this installation still qualify as existing since the replacement was not an upgrade in service ?

REPLY;
When you installed a new panel you now have to meet all the current codes for the entire service. You changed the integrity of the wiring thus negating the term existing. In electrical when you change one thing on the service you open the entire service to new installation rules. A service definition is from the point of the Utility company connection to the main service rated panel and may be ruled even any nonservice rated panel depending on what the Electrical Inspector sees during inspection process. YOu may have some of the existing wiring design of the old service that you may be able to reuse, but replacing a main service rated panel with a new main service rated panel would not be considered as minor repair. Installing your new main service panel is installing new therefore comes under the control of current NEC rules. see 80.9.A and C

The closet would depend on what that closet is designed to be used for. Most closets in a dwelling is considered a place of storage or a clothes closet or both. The NEC forbids a panel to be installed either in a clothes closet or place of storage. See NEC 110.26.B and 240.24

YOU SAID;
#3 If not , and the panel must be moved, won't I now have a large splice box in the closet? Or must I make all new home runs in which case, I'll have to tear up walls.

REPLY;
The NEC allows the large junction box as long as you do not exceed box fill requirements of that box according to NEC 314.16

It is advisable to run new branch circuits on circuits that are for resistant heat such as electric ranges, electric dryers, etc. These electric heat appliances are hard on connections. If you have to use an existing resistant heat type branch circuit then you should take special care to ensure a good strong connection point of those wires.

Many electrical inspectors will allow you to remove the insides of an old panel and use that existing old panel to make your junctions and branch circuit extensions. Confirm this option with your local AHJ [electrical inspector]

YOU SAID;
I am adding an addition to the home , which I obviously will have inspected.

REPLY;
This is a good thing to have inspections. The inspector is proof you wired your home correctly protecting you from an insurance company claiming that you did not follow the rules of your area when wiring your home. The inpector is there to help you not hurt you. Often times the person performing electrical wiring don't know that they don't know. Often times as long as it works people are happy yet they may have just set up a fire trap due to improper wiring that this person didn't know he wired wrong. Use your inspector's knowledge. Although an inspector can be a pain at times and you may not understand why he or she made a ruling as he or she did, good chance is that ruling was to protect you from what you didn't know. Remember electricity works continuously even while your are sleeping in your most vulnerable time of your life. Rely on that inspector to be your source of knowledge and protection from you making a mistake unknowingly.

To ask questions is good. The only really bad question is that question you did not ask.

Hope this helps

Wg

[Anonymous]

Okay, so I guess I'm moving the service panel.

Lets see if I've got this right.
I plan on running the wire from the meter base aprox. 20' along the outside wall , into the house , down the basement wall to the panel.
If I read correctly, 2" sched. 80 PVC conduit should be O.K. for this with 2/0 cable.
For the grounding electrode I will run #4 copper from the panel to the copper pipe water service and to a grounding rod not from the meter .
I'm a little fuzzy on whether a disconnect (main over current protection) is required at the meter or not since the wire has not entered the structure , but is running on the wall outside.
I plan to install 3\4' plywood on basement wall, and mount the service panel on that.
The romex getting pulled into the panel will be stapled to the plywood. Does this require any protection ?

[Wgoodrich]

The NEC says EITHER outside or NEARST POINT OF ENTRANCE for location of you main service rated disconnect or breaker. The NEC does not care if you ran all the way around your house. It only requires the main disconnect and over current device most commonly a main breaker in the main service rated panel to be located NEAREST POINT OF ENTRANCE INTO THE BUILDING. This nearest point of entrance in my are is considered to be 3 feet most commonly. You area AHJ [electrical inspector] has the authority to declare how far into the building is NEAREST POINT OF ENTRANCE INTO THE BUILDING.

Sch 40 PVC would not be allowed if subject to physical damage. In my area that area from the earth to approximately 6' above the earth would definitly be exposed to subject to physical damage. Again your AHJ has the authority to declare what is subject to physical damage. Sch 80 PVC is approved where subject to physical damage. You may install all sch 80 PVC or Sch 80 PVC where subject to physical damage then switching to sch 40 PVC where not subject to physical damage such as inside the home.

The NEC states that you may land your grounding electrode conductor either in the meter base or in the main service rated panel that is coming from your ground rod. Some Utility companies do not allow the grouding electrode condctor to be landed inside the meterbase and some require that grounding electrode conductor to land inside the meter base. This would be a local rule only. The NEC allows you to land the grounding elecrode conductor either inside the meter base or inside the main service rated panel.

The water pipes IF IN DIRECT CONTACT WITH THE EARTH FOR A MINIMUM OF 10' is considered a grounding electrode and that wire connecting to this metal water pipe must be connected within 5' of the entry of that metal water pipe that is in direct contact with the earth as discribed. The other end of that grounding electrode conductor may then land again either inside the meter base or inside the main service rated panel.

If this metal water pipe is not in direct contact with the earth yet the water pipes are metal then you must connect an eqiupment grounding conductor from the groudng bar of the main service rated panel to the cold water line in an always accessible point on that metal water line then jump a connection between that cold water metal water line to the hot water metal water line. The intent in this case is to make the metal water pipes to be one with the equipment grounding system as a safety measure for shorted water lines to electric only and not to use this metal water pipe
as a grounding electrode becuase in this case you don't have the contact for 10' of that metal water line with the earth.

Hope this helps

Wg

[Anonymous]

Thanks, I'm on my way out the door for materials.

One more thing, I know that normaly romex type cable cannot be exposed. What about that short distance it is exposed before it enters the panel?

Thanks VERY much , you are saving me lots of grief.

[Wgoodrich]

The Romex stapled to a plywood backing is normally considered as not subject to physical damage. It is high on the wall and should be fine. Actually Romex could be mounted high on a wall on the surface of a wall or ceiling. Wife might get mad but it would meet Code rules if not subject to physical damage.

The plywood is a good thing you are doing. Just use a type of plywood like CD for outside use due to moisture in the masonary wall. The NEC requires a minimum of 1/4" air space between contact of a metal panel and a masonary wall. You plywood if approved for wet location meets that need of the rules.

Good Luck

Wg

[Anonymous]

One more thing....

Picked up sch. 80 pipe but unable to find sch. 80 fittings. One home center employee said theyr'e not necessary. I wouldn't say I trust that opinion. I't doesn't make sense to me to use sch. 40 fittings with sch. 80 pipe. Does it ?

[Wgoodrich]

Look at your sch 40 fittings then think how deep the sch 80 PVC condiut enters that fitting when the fitting is glued to the conduit.

Other than LB used to make the flat bend with a cover plate to allow installation of the conductors a major part of all couplings and terminal adapters are inserted by the sch 80 PVC conduit.

You salesman is correct in the statement that sch 40 fittings are approved for use with sch 80 PVC subject to physical damage installations.

Doubt you will ever find sch 80 PVC fittings anywhere, not required by the NEC.

Hope this helps

Wg

[Anonymous]

wanted to through in two cent's worth,pertaining to EGC run and connected to water pipe (10'in earth)within 5',where entering dwelling. OUR State code supperseeded NEC stating that EGC must run to street side of water meter.In some cases those meters were closer then that 5' requirement and some of us may want to save that 3' of wire or just feel this is proper. Results not accepted by AHJ and wire now comes up short, so instead of saving 3' you may be stuck with 40' unused hanging in garage!(no savings). Reason being if water meter needs replacing the EGC has now been broken temporarily,plus if fault to EGC could cause injury to party changing meter.WHO"S RESPONSIBLE! would'nt hurt to check if you have such water meter installation in home. SORRY $1.02 cents worth. :roll:or just stay on that street side,within the NEC 5' requirement.

[Wgoodrich]

Guest you are right in what you said only it is not just your State rule but the NEC also requires you to connect on the line side of that meter if that meter is inside you home. If that meter is outside your home and at the street the GEC is not required to be ran to that remote meter. Only require that you have 10' of metal pipe in contact with the earth and not relying on a meter of valve that would breach the intergrity of that GROUNDING ELECTRODE CONDUCTOR in direct contact with the earth.

Really doubt in my mind that if your water pipe goind underground to a remote meter would have any affect on the disappation of the faulted current. The 10 feet of contact with earth concerning the NEC is suffecient.

I have heard of areas requiring a jumper to be installed across that street side meter as a local rule also.

Good point

Wg