Ground used as a conductor?

[Anonymous]

Posted by: Stew Bradley (old forum transfer)
Posted - 02/13/2002 : 19:55:12

I installed a new outlet. Conveniently located in the wall where I cut the hole was a wire that I determined ran to an electric base board heater. Testing the wire I discovered that the white wire was not used but that the black and ground were used. This was installed this way apparently because there is no voltage (only amperage) used by the heater. Is it ok that I hooked up an outlet on this line? The outlet appears to work fine but is it save and will it damage the television that will be pluged into it?

[Anonymous]

Posted by: Wgoodrich
Posted - 02/13/2002 : 21:07:20

How did you test this wire to know that it was not used. This concerns me with what you are saying. A baseboard heater is known to have 220 volts making the black wire and the white wire both to be 120 volts to ground each or 240 volts to each other.

You can not use a bare wire as a grounded leg serving as a return path back to the panel completing that branch circuit using the one hot wire. The return path grounded leg is a current carrying conductor and it must be insulated or you will energize your non current carrying metal parts throughout your home. This means a person will stand to experience an electrical shock just by touching any metal shell of any appliance such as a washer, range, etc.

Never use a bare wire as a white wire.

You need to take a voltage test between the black and white wire. I believe you will find 240 volts to this circuit.

What happened to the baseboard heater?

Is this wire found on the load side of a thermostat found on the opposite side of the room?

You may use this cable you found only if that cable is traced its full length and confirmed to be coming directly from the panel's breaker or fuse. You then must open the panel and confirm that the black wire of that cable connects to a single pole breaker. The white wire must be connected to the neutral bar and the bare wire must be connected to the grounding bar all within that panel.

You must confirm that no other baseboard heaters or any other loads are on that circuit.

Hope this helps

Wg

[Anonymous]

Posted by: Stew Bradley
Posted - 02/13/2002 : 21:20:31

Thanks for the reply. I'll have to admit that I don't have answers to all of your questions. With a simple tester I could touch the probs to the black wire and white wire and get nothing. Touching either the black or white with one probe and the other to the ground I would get an indication of 110 V. It sounds to me like the best and safest thing is for me to undo what I've done and run a new outlet from another outlet nearby. Right? Thanks again.

[Anonymous]

Posted by: Wgoodrich
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 14:18:36

Stew the more we talk the more concerned I have become about your safety.

The test you discribed tells me that sometime in the past someone has already done what you were going to do. When you test between the black and white wire and you get nothing but then when you test from the black wire to the bare wire you get 120 volts and then when you test from your white wire to your bare you get 120 volts again you have two hots of the same cable on the same phase. This is dangerous. Using the bare wire as a current carrying neutral conductor is also dangerous.

Please go to you panel and take off your panel cover. BE CAREFUL. Find the cable that is connected to breakers that is that cable you have been testing. Just shut off all breakers in your panel. Then test between the black and hte bare at the place you previouly tested at the hole in your wall. Now turn on the breakers one at a time till you know that breaker turned that black on with power of that cable. Then in the panel back trace that black wire connected to that certain breaker to the place where it leave through the wall of hte panel. You will find the white wire of that same cable. Trace that white wire back into the panel and see if it goes to a second breaker in that panel. If the answer is yes the turn off your main breaker and move that white wire from that breaker and connect it instead to the neutral bar in the panel. This will have your bare and white wire coming into the panel from that cable connected to the neutral and grounding bars instead of the breakers. Then turn everything back on and test that cable at the hole again. YOu should find 120 volts between the black and the white and again 120 volts between the black and the bare. Then you should find 0 volts between the white and the bare. If that is what you find after you moved the white wire in the panel from your breaker ot the neutral bar then go around your house and test to try and find something not working.

Tell us then what you found that is not working. We will have to find what is not working now and correct that wiring in that box to make you safe.

Wg

[Anonymous]

Posted by: Stew Bradley
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 18:45:19

Ya know, nothing is ever easy. My plan was to tap off of an existing outlet, cut a couple of holes in the sheet rock, drill a couple of studs, run a few feet of wire and be done with it…. But NOOOOOO, I cut the first hole and magically find a wire, safely (I thought) find out what that wire is attached to and what circuit it’s on, and think (erroneously) that I had just gotten lucky.

I sincerely appreciate your concern and your help, you truly may be a lifesaver. Thanks again!

Here is what I did today before seeing your post. I got a junction box, removed the outlet and box I installed yesterday, spliced the original wires back together (in the junction box, wire nuts, tape etc.) and went back and completed my original plan.

This is an old building and like most old buildings has had lots of work done by lots of people who may or may not have been certified (you know… people like me). The heater has worked for years, it is working now, the new outlet works too. No shocks from any appliance, the circuit breakers don’t trip, and everything seems fine. If I go back and re-test and find that I have 220v between the black and white am I OK or do I still need to do all that you suggest in your previous post?

Thanks again for your concern and your patience.

[Anonymous]

Posted by: Wgoodrich
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 19:02:56

If the wire that you found is going to a baseboard heater. If you have nothing else on that circuit such as lights or receptacles. Then you are supposed to find 240 volts between the black and the white. If your baseboard heater is working fine and heating then you do. If you find 120 volts to the ground from both the black and the white then you have two hot lines of the same phase and you can have a melt down due to twice as much amp on the bare grounding wire than the grounding wire can carry without overheating. That wire is rated 15 amp if 14 awg and 20 amp if 12 awg. If you fully load both hot lines being on the same phase then you can have as much as 40 amps on that 15 or 20 amp wire. Also you would be using a bare wire to carry current inviting a life threatening shock.

Make sure what you have to be safe. Peoples lives are counting on it.

IF this cable runs a baseboard heater only and if you find 240 volts between the black and white wires then you are wired correctly. Make sure the splices are contained within a box and not buried in a wall where they can cook and start a fire.

Remember electricity not only starts fires if mishandled it can wait for years for the right conditions to happen and that electricity if wired wrong can kill.

Just be sure you are safe.

Good Luck

Wg

[Anonymous]

Posted by: Stew Bradley
Posted - 02/14/2002 : 19:16:07

With your help I think I'm safe again. I'm always doing something aruond the house so I suspect that I will have questions again. Thanks so much for your expert advice.