View Full Version : Question regarding codes **Please Help**
gcx
January 16th, 2004, 07:18 PM
Put an addition on my house and did my own wiring throughout (with input from journeyman electrician). The inspector sited me for things that I couldnt find in the code book and didnt seem to have much knowledge to back up his reasoning (ironically). This is in the state of Michigan BTW.
He kept saying homeowners shouldnt do wiring before he fully inspected the job. And folks, I am a perfectionist so it looks professional if you are wondering. I told him I couldnt pay the $8000 I was quoted so I wonder if he isnt biased on homeowners. Heres some of his problems:
1. I used metal boxes, tied grounds with bell clamps and attached to box with large head self tappers. He wants me to replace all 100 or so bonding screws because they are not green. In the book I interpreted the only mention of green screws being the one in the panel for the grounding bar. Is this required in the field or is this BS? I mean, the green color will help it ground better right? And of course, nobody could figure out that the bare wire in the box is a ground without a green screw to identify it.
2. I used 12 ga wire to run my feeds with 20 amp breakers. I used 12 ga to feed the lights but used 14 ga for the switch legs. My understanding is that the only load on the switch leg is that of the light itself with would never even reach 7 amps so why would I have to use 12 ga wire. The inspector said I cannot mix 12/14. I understand the point for recepticles, etc. but a switch leg shouldnt have to be able to accept 20 amps should it? Heck, these switches have pigtails factory sealed to the switches with very small gauge wire!
3. I have a ceiling fan in which I wanted to mount to a 4 square box reinforced by a 2x4, and a round drywall ring. He said I had to take it down and get an actual fan mount because he didnt feel it would support 100 lbs. So, I hung from it at 200 lbs and he changed his concern. He then said he didnt think the drywall ring screws could support the fan because they were small so I needed to pull it down. The fan bracket attaches to the same screws on ANY box it is mounted to so I dont understand this problem either.
4. I have outside lights at the sides of the garage door and at the side garage entrance. They are on dusk to dawn sensors, and I switched it in a location that is easily accessible but not near the interior light switches. I did this because everytime someone enters/exits the garage they seemed to turn them off. He wants me to put it next to the interior light switch, yet I couldnt find anything in the code book about even having to switch them at all.
Are these concerns in the code or is he just digging for things? I doubt his credibility because He just didnt seem to know what he was looking for and didnt even want to see the circuit box that I replaced ! (I insisted he looked and he had No problems with the box at all) I DO NOT feel that I know more than any of the trained professionals and if this guy would have seemed a little more informed I would have taken his requests with a grain of salt. It just seems unjust that he is requesting me to change these particular things so I thought I would make sure he is not full of it. It will not be easy to remedy some of these things so I just want to be sure that it is a code violation and not his personal opinions. Thanks alot for reading this long explanation and any info given would be greatly appreciated!
Wgoodrich
January 17th, 2004, 06:26 AM
YOU SAID;
1. I used metal boxes, tied grounds with bell clamps and attached to box with large head self tappers. He wants me to replace all 100 or so bonding screws because they are not green. In the book I interpreted the only mention of green screws being the one in the panel for the grounding bar. Is this required in the field or is this BS? I mean, the green color will help it ground better right? And of course, nobody could figure out that the bare wire in the box is a ground without a green screw to identify it.
ANSWER;
COPIED SECTION OF NEC 2002;
250.126 Identification of Wiring Device Terminals.
The terminal for the connection of the equipment grounding conductor shall be identified by one of the following:
(1) A green, not readily removable terminal screw with a hexagonal head.
(2) A green, hexagonal, not readily removable terminal nut.
(3) A green pressure wire connector. If the terminal for the grounding conductor is not visible, the conductor entrance hole shall be marked with the word green or ground, the letters G or GR or the grounding symbol shown in Figure 250.126, or otherwise identified by a distinctive green color. If the terminal for the equipment grounding conductor is readily removable, the area adjacent to the terminal shall be similarly marked.
110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
COMMENT;
If you will look in the metal box in the back wall you will find a threaded hole sized and designed only to take a green grounding screw. If you will look at the installation instructions of your metal box it will tell you that the hole is for the green grounding screw listed for this purpose and required to be installed to make the bonding connection between the grounding wire and the metal box per manufacturer's installation instructions.
Inspector is correct in this ruling.
YOU SAID;
2. I used 12 ga wire to run my feeds with 20 amp breakers. I used 12 ga to feed the lights but used 14 ga for the switch legs. My understanding is that the only load on the switch leg is that of the light itself with would never even reach 7 amps so why would I have to use 12 ga wire. The inspector said I cannot mix 12/14. I understand the point for recepticles, etc. but a switch leg shouldnt have to be able to accept 20 amps should it? Heck, these switches have pigtails factory sealed to the switches with very small gauge wire!
ANSWER;
COPIED SECTION NEC 2002;
240.4 Protection of Conductors.
Conductors, other than flexible cords, flexible cables, and fixture wires, shall be protected against overcurrent in accordance with their ampacities specified in 310.15, unless otherwise permitted or required in 240.4(A) through (G).
(D) Small Conductors. Unless specifically permitted in 240.4(E) through (G), the overcurrent protection shall not exceed 15 amperes for 14 AWG, 20 amperes for 12 AWG, and 30 amperes for 10 AWG copper; or 15 amperes for 12 AWG and 25 amperes for 10 AWG aluminum and copper-clad aluminum after any correction factors for ambient temperature and number of conductors have been applied.
COMMENT;
You are trying to use a switch leg that has a length measured in feet. Tap rules in this instance is limited to being measured in inches. Notice the maximum length of 18" concerning taps in the copied section of NEC 210.19 COPIED SECTION NEC 2002;
Exception No. 1: Tap conductors shall have an ampacity sufficient for the load served. In addition, they shall have an ampacity of not less than 15 for circuits rated less than 40 amperes and not less than 20 for circuits rated at 40 or 50 amperes and only where these tap conductors supply any of the following loads:
(a) Individual lampholders or luminaires (fixtures) with taps extending not longer than 450 mm (18 in.) beyond any portion of the lampholder or luminaire (fixture).
(c) Individual outlets, other than receptacle outlets, with taps not over 450 mm (18 in.) long.
COMMENT;
Inspector is correct in this ruling.
This reply has gotten to long for the forum to accept. Please refer to my following reply to read the remaining reply part 2.
Wg
Wgoodrich
January 17th, 2004, 06:28 AM
YOU SAID;
3. I have a ceiling fan in which I wanted to mount to a 4 square box reinforced by a 2x4, and a round drywall ring. He said I had to take it down and get an actual fan mount because he didnt feel it would support 100 lbs. So, I hung from it at 200 lbs and he changed his concern. He then said he didnt think the drywall ring screws could support the fan because they were small so I needed to pull it down. The fan bracket attaches to the same screws on ANY box it is mounted to so I dont understand this problem either.
ANSWER;
Problem is vibartion eating the threads out of those screw tabs of those type boxes. Buy a box marked for use with a fan. Approved as a fan box. Note that each one has the threads in the back of the box with a guide hole that will obsorb the vibration before that vibration gets to the threads of that fan approved box. Note the rule below that applies;
COPIED SECTION NEC 2002;
422.18 Support of Ceiling-Suspended (Paddle) Fans.
(A) Ceiling-Suspended (Paddle) Fans 16 kg (35 lb) or Less. Ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans that do not exceed 16 kg (35 lb) in weight, with or without accessories, shall be permitted to be supported by outlet boxes identified for such use and supported in accordance with 314.23 and 314.27.
(B) Ceiling-Suspended (Paddle) Fans Exceeding 16 kg (35 lb). Ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans exceeding 16 kg (35 lb) in weight, with or without accessories, shall be supported independently of the outlet box. See 314.23.
Section 422.18(B) requires listed fans that exceed 35 lb, with or without accessories, to be supported independently from the outlet box as shown in Exhibit 314.9. Additionally, 314.23 requires boxes to be rigid and securely fastened in place. The exception to 422.18(B) allows a box or box system identified or listed for the application to provide the sole support for this heavier class of fan, up to 70 lb.
Exception: Listed outlet boxes or outlet box systems that are identified for the purpose shall be permitted to support ceiling-suspended fans, with or without accessories, that weigh 32 kg (70 lb) or less.
COMMENT;
Inspector was correct in ruling this subject.
YOU SAID;
4. I have outside lights at the sides of the garage door and at the side garage entrance. They are on dusk to dawn sensors, and I switched it in a location that is easily accessible but not near the interior light switches. I did this because everytime someone enters/exits the garage they seemed to turn them off. He wants me to put it next to the interior light switch, yet I couldnt find anything in the code book about even having to switch them at all.
ANSWER;
COPIED SECTION NEC 2002;
210.70.A.2
(b) For dwelling units, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power, at least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed to provide illumination on the exterior side of outdoor entrances or exits with grade level access. A vehicle door in a garage shall not be considered as an outdoor entrance or exit.
COMMENT;
While a switch controlled lighting outlet [light fixture] is required at each exterior door of a dwelling and at each exterior door of garages [except vehicular doors] it does not say the switch must be at that door in this rule.
See the following exception to the above rule found in 210.70.A.2
COPIED SECTION NEC 2002;
Exception to (a), (b), and (c): In hallways, stairways, and at outdoor entrances, remote, central, or automatic control of lighting shall be permitted.
COMMENT;
Notice in that exception the term remote switching is used allowing the switch to that light at the exterior garage door to be elsewhere.
In my opinion the inspector is incorrect in this ruling requiring the switch to be at that door location.
YOU SAID;
Are these concerns in the code or is he just digging for things? I doubt his credibility because He just didnt seem to know what he was looking for and didnt even want to see the circuit box that I replaced ! (I insisted he looked and he had No problems with the box at all) I DO NOT feel that I know more than any of the trained professionals and if this guy would have seemed a little more informed I would have taken his requests with a grain of salt. It just seems unjust that he is requesting me to change these particular things so I thought I would make sure he is not full of it. It will not be easy to remedy some of these things so I just want to be sure that it is a code violation and not his personal opinions. Thanks alot for reading this long explanation and any info given would be greatly appreciated!
ANSWER;
Yes, these concerns are minimum safety standards set in the NEC and are required concerning safety of occupants. It is my opinion that he was accurate in his rulings with the exception of the location of the garage door switch. I would have challenged the same rulings in my jurisdiction with the exception of that switch at the garage door as explained above.
It is my opinion especially that grounding screw connection that these were valid concerns. Remember the breaker trips for two reasons, overload between the hot and the neutral. [protecting the building from fire] and interupting rating between the hot and the bare [protecting life and limb]. Seems to me those grounidng wires are the most important wire in your home protecting life.
I suspect the inspector only flagged these items due to his value of them in his concerns. I also suspect with these mistakes being listed that there probably are many more mistakes in the home that he did not bring to light.
Before you drywall or ask for a reinspection I suggest you read the article linked above in the yellow and green blocks labeled "Wiring a new dwelling".
After reading that article also may be worth your while to read the link above "Wiring a new meter / grounding". You may find some mistakes you may want to correct in your wiring design. Be safe worth the time to read making you home more safe. If you have mistakes now it if you have not drywalled would be the easiest time to correct and make you wiring design safer.
Good Luck
Wg
gcx
January 17th, 2004, 07:29 AM
Thanks for the input and explanations. I will attend to the issues without reservation, with the exception of the switch. The inspector was pleased with my boxes outside the issues sited above. There were not any other issues mentioned, nor do I believe he would have found any. I simply felt that his arguements lacked merit on safety if he didnt want to inspect the circuit box in which I installed. To me, it seems your safety begins there and carries throughout the feild. But all is well, I will take care of them since validity was demonstrated and again THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!
Speedy Petey
January 17th, 2004, 06:29 PM
I simply felt that his arguements lacked merit on safety
It is not the inspectors job to give merit to his reasoning, just a code citation. If it cannot be cited in the code book he cannot fail an item. Some things are up to interpretation but most are pretty black and white.
I am glad an inspector checks a homeowner's work closer than an establised electrician. There are way too many small details in the code to get wrong. We have studied and applied the code for quite a long time as electricians and even we get things wrong from time to time.
Although this is a DIY forum I feel quite strongly that wiring a whole house or replacing a service is NOT a DIY job. I may be able to do my own taxes and barely get by but an accountant knows ALL the tax codes and all the changes. He will surely do a better and more thorough job than me.
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