spa electical service

[Anonymous]

Posted by: Electricjeff (old forum transfer)
19 Aug 2002 12:48 pm

i need to add 60A 240V service for a new spa my to existing 200A service, but my panel is maxxed out. my spa literature says i only need 2 hots and a ground. i know i need a GFCI and disconnect at least 5' from spa. But what i need to know is what kind of box do i need with my main service box. Main lug only or small load center? do I install GFCI in that box and separate disconnect near spa or GFCI in box at spa? Do i only run 3 wires to disconnect box or 4? figure on using #6 THHN in 3/4 PVC conduit if thats ok. I appreciate any help, spa is coming in a couple of days and we really want to use it!! thanks

[Anonymous]

Posted by: Wgoodrich
21 Aug 2002 12:56 am

YOU SAID;
i need to add 60A 240V service for a new spa my to existing 200A service, but my panel is maxxed out.

REPLY;
By saying you panel is maxed out I am suspecting that you are saying that you have no more breaker slots for new breakers. If this is true then you should look at the inside of your panel door. Look at the label where you circuits are listed and supposed to be marked as to what breaker goes where. Look and see if you have circuits labeled 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, etc. If any of your circuits are listed a and b or any other method implying that you have two circuits in one slot then you most likely have a panel that will take half sized breakers. If this is true then you can remove a couple of full sized breakers making two breaker circuits in one slot for two different circuits. In doing this you will be creating two slots that you need that will be empty.

YOU SAID;

my spa literature says i only need 2 hots and a ground.

REPLY;
Be careful with this statement that you are not misreading that statement. Most hot tubs require both 240 volt for the inline heater and a 120 volt for you motor. What you may be reading is that you need two hots and a neutral then an equipment grounidng conductor being three insulated wires and a bare or green wire in that branch circuit cable. Check to see if you motor is 120 volt rated or 240 volt rated. Best to be sure than sorry.

YOU SAID;

i know i need a GFCI and disconnect at least 5' from spa.

REPLY;
If you hot tub does not have a built in breaker inside the hot tub to serve as a form of disconnect then you will need a form of disconnect at least 5' away from that hot tub. That disconnect also is required to be insight of that hot tub. Insight means that you can see it from the hot tub but not more than 50' away from that hot tub.

YOur GFI protection is required to protect that hot tub but that GFI breaker may be in the disonnect insight of that hot tub or in the main panel where you are getting your power. IF you install that GFI 240 volt 60 amp breaker in that main service panel then you may install a nonfused disconnect form such as a nonfused a/c disconnect weather proof insight of that hot tub. No second breaker is required.

YOU SAID;
But what i need to know is what kind of box do i need with my main service box. Main lug only or small load center?

REPLY;
Check as discribed above whether you are allowed 1/2 sized breakers in your main service panel. If you show the a and b circuits for some of the circuits on you label then most likely you may install 1/2 sized breakers and make room in your main service rated panel. IF you panel does not accept 1/2 sized breakers then you may install a sub panel next to that main service rated panel or even in another part of the house as long as there is a breaker in the main service panel to control that nonservice rated panel [aka sub panel]. You may use a main lug only panel as a sub panel of the main panel as long as there is a breaker in that main panel to protect both the feeder and the sub panel that feeder serves. You will be required to install a four wire cable as your feeder. If you install a 100 amp rated main lug only panel as your subpanel then you may use 4 awg copper wires THHN conductors in a flexible metallic tubing or electrical nonmetallic tubing for protection of those 4 awg copper wires THHN conductors. If you want to use aluminum wire then you must use a minimum of 2 SER aluminum four wire cable that is a nonmetallic sheathed cable a lot like Romex. Don't think you will find 4 awg four wire copper cable like Romex.

YOU SAID;
do I install GFCI in that box and separate disconnect near spa or GFCI in box at spa?

REPLY;
Sorry guess I answered this question before I knew you asked it. Please refer above and you should find you may install the GFI either place.

YOU SAID;
Do i only run 3 wires to disconnect box or 4? figure on using #6 THHN in 3/4 PVC conduit if thats ok.

REPLY;
YOu must run four insulated wire if your hot tub uses a 120 volt load that needs a neutral and you will have to install 4 wires black, red, white and bare or green. If your hot tub is 240 volt rated only with no 120 volt loads in that hot tub then you can install a three wire cable black, white, bare or green. The white then would be re-identified as a black or red wire with marker tape to identify that white as a hot conductor and no neutral wouild then be used. Just make sure that no 120 volt loads are in your hot tub before you install only a 3 wire cable to that hot tub.

YOU SAID;
I appreciate any help, spa is coming in a couple of days and we really want to use it!! thanks.

REPLY;
Glad to be of help if I can. One thing that I want to touch on is the oddity that you say you have no need for a neutral. I have not seen any hot tub so far that did not need a four wire cable black red white and bare or green. Is it possible that you are from Europe.

Be careful and make sure you have no 120 volt equipment in that hot tub before you run a three wire cable. This is not normal.

Let us know how you are doing;

Good Luck

Wg

[6pack]

curious, in your reply here? paragraph(answer)#6. you said "can use 3 wire cable here"? Assume you are reffering to wiring inside dwelling. Was my understanding uf cable not allowed for hot tubs or spa's(outside).Noticed mentioned same thing also in closing statement. Understand referring to 220v and not any 110v equipment.Isn't EGC still considered only covered??? or am I reading wrong.?? TY

[Wgoodrich]

Wannabbee, the swimming pool code and hot tub code rules found in 680 of hte NEC is not only explicit concerning certain conditions these rules applying to swimming pool and hot tubs have become rather complicated concerning certain conditions of hte installation. I have written a new ABOVE GROUND POOL article that Don is putting together and is planned to be posted in the 2002 side of you homewiringandmore web site within the next week or so. Just to give you an idea how complicated the swmming pool codes are, in order to right a complete article just pertaining to above ground pools and attempting to approach all the conditions that may be involved in the above ground pool installation it took approximately 35 pages in that article and still I most likely missed a few different specific conditions of the installation of just an above ground pool in that article.

It gets more complicated the more you know concerning 680 for hot tubs and pools.

If you go to hot tubs and find that rule that applies to inside installations of hot tubs it will refer you to sections one and two of the swimming pool section. Then if you go to those two sections of 680 for swimming pools and now controlling hot tubs then you will find averything change mostly depending on if there is an underwater light involved.

In this case it was my understanding that this hot tub was an inside installation and with a 240 volt rated motor only and no underwater light involved in the hot tub installation. This would lead you to motor rules in the NEC in 680. Then you have to know if this was a commercial or residential installation. It was my understanding that it was an inside residential installation with a 240 volt motor only. This led me to use the following rule that should apply. Read the following rule and see if it fits what I was saying in this certain installation. Be aware an outside hot tub or commercial hot tub installation would be dramatically different than this inside residential installation. Also remember that a 240 volt motor will not have use for a neutral conductor to run that motor.

Let me know what you find in you mind after you have read the rule that I felt applied to this certain installation.

COPIED SECTION OF 2002 NEC

680.43 Indoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed indoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article except as modified by this section, and shall be connected by the wiring methods of Chapter 3.

II. Permanently Installed Pools

680.21 Motors.
(A) Wiring Methods.
(4) One-Family Dwellings. In the interior of one-family dwellings, or in the interior of accessory buildings associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code shall be permitted that comply with the provisions of this paragraph. Where run in a raceway, the equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated. Where run in a cable assembly, the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted to be uninsulated, but it shall be enclosed within the outer sheath of the cable assembly.


Let me know if this helps

Wg

[Wgoodrich]

Wannabbee, I guess I mislead you. Don emailed me and the new 2002 version of WIRING AN ABOVE GROUND POOL has been posted at the following link on our accessory building subject in the 2002 side of your homewiringandmore.com web site. HOpe you enjoy. The following link will take you there.

http://www.homewiringandmore.com/homewiringusa/2002/accessory/poolabove/poolabove.html

Enjoy and hope it helps

Wg

[6pack]

I agree with your interpretation also. In no way did I mean to be doubting your findings, it's as stated before poor reader and before rereading and rereading I jump to my conclusions. My wife helping me with this, also getting me new code book for Xmas. Actully would rather put $s to keeping site going if needed. I fully understand the effert yourself & Don are putting into this site. WHAT does get me as a reader, why so many posters do not follow up on there posts. When reading some posts and the confusion shown, they surely must be heck of alot smarter than me and not have a follow up question. Very few seem to Let You Know How they come out? Looking forward to new LINK will let you guys know what I think! TY

[Wgoodrich]

Wannabbee, no need for any opologies, if you see something that causes concern in what any of us say question what your concerns are, we will then go back and take another look. Questioning something that may be wrong is how we all learn. In no manner do I profess to be perfect. I learn something that I had wrong in the electrical field almost daily and will till I die of old age at least through two generations. Way too much in the electrical field to EVER know it all.

Thanks for you concern but you did fine to question that is what a forum is for, to learn, and that means all of us. I seek proper knowledge too in the subject of electricity, it is never ending.

Wg