KITCHEN REMODELING

[Anonymous]

Posted by: gcstrojny (old forum transfer)
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2002 6:28 pm

I am thining of remodeling our kitchen and in doing so wanted to but a sub-panel in our pantry. I have a sub in my attic and it is fed through the pantry wall. My question is can I split the wire and rerun it from original panel to the new sub in pantry and then feed the attic panel off of a breaker from the new sub,or do i have to run 2 seprate runs off the main sub. The main sub is rated at 100 amps. Thanks for any info.
I have other questions which i will post sepratley to avoid confusion,mostly my own

[Anonymous]

Post by: Wgoodrich
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2002 10:41 pm

It is very common that a 4000 square foot two story house with a 400 amp service does not have any sub panels in its design. Usually when asked about installing subpanel the people doing the asking is not very skilled at wiring a home.

I do not mean to make it sound like I am judging you just trying to attempt to get you attention on the subject of subpanels. Subpanels normally cost more money and is harder to install than installing branch circuits from the main service rated panel.

Panels or Sub panels are not allowed in a place of storage and also is not allowed in bathrooms or clothes closets. The panel of subpanel must have a minimum of 30" dedicated wall space wide where that panel or sub panel is installed and you must have a minimum of 30" of unobstructed clear approach from ceiling to floor in front of that panel.

I suggest that you consider installing your branch circuits from the panel for reasons stated above, also because it is very confusing where the breaker is that controls a certain circuit. Now is it in the attic, kitchen of garage?

The only way that you can make a sub panel from a subpanel is to install a breaker in the sub panel to feed the second sub panel of that subpanel. Are you starting to get dizzy? This is what happens when people start adding subpanels.

MOst people in an emergency will expect the breakers to be at the main panel. Best not surprise them with a sub panel unless you are doing a shop or other concentrated electrical area. Otherwise run all branch circuits from your main panel.

Hope this helps

Wg

[Anonymous]

Posted by: gcstrojny
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2002 12:20 am

Hmm, So putting a sub in a pantry would be a no-no. Bummer. The one outside wall of the pantry is in the kitchen so i guess i could place one recessed there,its 33 inches wide.My brother works at an electrical supply place so most of the materials would be at cost
This way i wouldnt have to run all the main circuit wires,just go over to basically a dedicated kitchen sub. I wanted to have the fridge micro on there own circuits,and have 2 breakers for outlets,plus a third for stove,exhaust fan and dishwasher,as well as 1 or 2 for the lights. Which means i would need a bigger main panel,NOT a job i would be willing to attempt myself. The previus owner was kinda wire happy an by the looks fixed on a need to basis,so some of the circuits are very hap hazard as far as what on them.I live in an old house,still have some knob an tubbing wires, really only supplying power to the lights though. Rest of house is newer wires. Thanks for the info.
BTW I did understand needing a breaker to feed the second sub,just wasnt sure if it was allowed.

[Anonymous]

Posted by: Wgoodrich
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2002 3:49 pm

Lets talk a bit on this planned second sub from the first sub.

Look to see what size feeder is serving that existing subpanel. Look in the main panel to see what size breaker is protecting that feeder. Just because you have a 100 amp rated panel as a sub panel does not mean you have 100 amp capacity. The breaker in the main panel controlling that sub panel or the feeder may be much smaller. Be sure what you are tapping to and the true capacity of that sub panel.

If you are designing your branch circuits in the kitchen remember that no receptacle in the kitchen is allowed to be shared with any lighting or fixed appliances [dishwasher, garbage disposals etc.

Remember that the kitchen counter must be served by a minimum of two 20 amp 120 volt receptacle circuits. Other receptacles in the kitchen, nook, dining, and pantry may be shared with those minimum two 20 amp branch receptacle cercuits serving that counter area.

Remember that a cook will use heavy amps while cooking on those counter receptacles but most likely would not be using reecptacles in the dining room at the same time. Then when cooking is done the cook is likely to move that heavy amp loaded small appliances to the dining room to serve dinner. Kind of like an either or operation concerning receptacles.

Dishwashers and garbage disposals may share one 20 amp branch circuit but be wary of putting lighting on with these appliances because the inrush of the starting of motors will cause dimming of lights sharing the dishwasher or gargage disposal branhc circuit.

Refrigerators are often installed on a dedicated 12 awg 20 amp branch circuit but may be installed on a dedicated 15 amp branch circuit if you like. Refrigerators are allowed to be servced by the 12 awg counter receptacle circuit also.

Do not GFI protect your refrig circuit to avoid loss of food due to false tripping of the GFI.

All receptacles serving the kitchen counter must be GFI protected.

If you installed a feeder from the main panel to the sub panel you could install all the different branch circuits from the main panel instead of the feeder for less money and pull these branch circuit conductors all at the same time and just as easy as the feeder would be pulled to that area. Then you would be done with your wire pulling instead of having to install the sub panel and then the branch circuits after you installed your feeder.

If you ran 5 branch circuits to that kitchen you are taliking 5 12/2wGrnd cables from the main panel. You would have 100 amp capacity in those 5 branch circuits pulled all at the same time.

Where is the advantage or better safety or better power supply to that kitchen if a sub panel is installed instaed of the branch circuits wihtout the sub panel.

See no logic in adding sub panels in a home 90 % of the time. What you have discribed is part of that 90 % of the time.

It is your house and the Code allows it. Just think it over pro and con both ways before you start.

Good Luck

Wg

[Anonymous]

Posted by: gcstrojny
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:07 pm

There is no marking on the breaker serving the current sub,was going to replace it. I understand the reasoning behind running 5 branch circuits,just dont know if i have enough space,i do have 4 slots avaialble,8 breakers are there now,not including a 220 and the one to the sub and i have at least 1 circuit that doesnt have much on it,4 outlets in the basement,hardley ever used,and my computer. So with alittle extra planning i could probably run it the way you suggest. I did plan on using 2 seperate cirrcuits for the outlets as well as dedicated ones for the fridge dishwasher and micro.Thanks again fer advice

[Anonymous]

Posted by: Wgoodrich
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:54 pm

Doesn't look like your main service is too big. Maybe now would be a prudent time to confirm your main service rated panel is large enough to do the job.

Below is a link to a format telling you how to perform your own demand load calculation so that you can discover the minimum main service rated panel that you are required by the NEC to have. Then you will know just how much more than minimum service you have available to do as you wish. At least then you will be making informed decisions.

http://www.homewiringandmore.com/homewiringusa/2002/definitions/demandcalc02/DwlingDmdCalc02.html

Let us know what you find.

Good Luck

Wg