Draining Tile clogged test! need help please!

[Unregistered]

A foudation contractor had me dig up to the fondatioon footing to poor water for 30 minutes on the footing drain (ie NOT in the drain) to see if the water would flow to the sump pump. After 30 mins, there were no water flowing in the sump pit so he concluded that:

1) the dain tile was clogged

2) the only remedy was to excavate the whole perimeter and rebiulf the draining tile.

Is the contractor right on his assessment? Could it take more than that to bring water to the pit? could the drain be cleaned in a less expensive way?

Thanks for your quick reply.

My email is jmdb@rogers.com

[xkvator]

are you having a problem with water seeping into basement?

how deep did you dig? how much deeper to drain tile? plastic or clay?

[jm1010]

Recently the sump pump coundln't keep up
and a fondation contractor hypothesized that it may be caused by the French drain that may have collapse or clogged and that would somehow create a major burst of water instead of a continuous flow of smaller water flow to the sump pit. To prove his theory we digged down to the footing to expose the French drain about 80 feet away from the sump pit and let the water run ON the pipe for 30 minutes.

As no water made it to the sump pit after 30 minutes , he concluded that the drain is faulty. That's my beef. Can he really make that conclusion? Could the
water just excape through the small slit in the pipe as the ground as been
dry for 2 weeks and the ground is not saturated? Is there another way to
check, test or clean the drain before resorting to excavation all around the
house?

Thanks again

[xkvator]

You Said The Sump Couldn't Keep Up...but The Ground Has Been Dry For 2 Weeks? When Did This Burst Of Water Come?

Cut A Hole In The Top Of The Pipe And Try To Run A Snake Thru To The Sump - A Camera Would Be An Option - $$

The Water You Ran For 30 Min Could Have Ran The Opposite Way - Away From The Sump Toward The Other Side Of House

I'm Not Buying The Clogged - Then Open - Then Clogged Theory.

Where Is The Sump Pit?

[jm1010]

To answer your questions:

The flood accured three weeks ago and since then we had no rain whatsoever. The basement flood was caused solely by the sump pump failure, I had NO water infiltration through the walls and floor.

We exposed the exterior sweeping tile opposite to the sump pit location. ie the sum pit is in the back left side of the house and we digged in the front right corner of the house.

Once we saw the sweeping tile, we just "splash it with a hose for 30 minutes. The contractor thought this was a fail proof way to know if the sweeping tile was failing.

After 30 minutes of splashing the weeping tile with a hose there was no water in the sump pit.

Based on this, the contractor concluded 2 things:

1) The weeping tile is not working

2) It must be excavated and rebuild


I am certainly no expert but I am not convinced and would appreciate other expert opinion:


1) Is splashing water on a weeping tile a "fail proof" method to confirm it's working? Would putting a hose in the pipe a better method?

2) Could I attempt to locate the location of the problem (drain video $200) or attempting to clean the clog with high pressure instead of resorting to excavating all around? Those methods are not free but certainly less expensive than rebuilding the whole weeping tile ($8,000+)

Thanks again for your help.

[xkvator]

are you sure the sump pump is working & able to pump to it's capacity?

when you mentioned small slits n the pipe, i'm assuming the pipe is the black corrugated type.

is there gravel surrounding the pipe - does it look silted up where you exposed it?

i'd cut a piece of the top of the pipe away and look inside first - easy to repair -

if you were't having a problem a month ago...i don't see this totally happening all at once.
even if a section collapsed or blocked, you wouldn't have to dig the whole system up

when were the drains installed?

[jm1010]

My response below, thanks again:

Are you sure the sump pump is working & able to pump to it's capacity?

YES

when you mentioned small slits n the pipe, i'm assuming the pipe is the black corrugated type.

YES

is there gravel surrounding the pipe - does it look silted up where you exposed it?

YES but I think there could be more

i'd cut a piece of the top of the pipe away and look inside first - easy to repair -

I did there's a little dirt. I inserted a hose through the hole I cut and let the water poor for a good 20 minutes. While I didn't see backflow, the sump pit is still super dry. Is that normal? Do you need to let the water run way much longer to make the 80 feet between this opening and the sump pit?

if you were't having a problem a month ago...i don't see this totally happening all at once.

Spring time is pretty much the only time my sump pit gets to work hard. But every spring in my area brings water surprises.


even if a section collapsed or blocked, you wouldn't have to dig the whole system up

when were the drains installed?[/QUOTE]

in 1998, they are not covered with textile protection and my feel is gravel coverage could be better (just a few inch).

Based on that, what would you do in my shoes? Would you go for full excavation or video first?

[mdshunk]

Are you sure that this pipe you exposed even goes to the sump pit? Perhaps it goes to a dry well somewhere in the yard or even travels hundreds of feet to daylight somewhere else?

[Unregistered]

That's definitely not the issue.

The real question is: by pooring water in the weeping tile, which I just did this afternoon, for a good 20 minutes in the opposite section of the house (ie furthest away from the sump pit) , if my sump pit is still dry after that does that NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THE WEEPING TILE IS FAULTY OR NOT?

The contractor says yes but while I am no expert I have my doubts for the following reasons:

1) If hasn't rain for a good 3 weeks to the watertable may be below the weeping tile;

2) In these conditions, maybe the most likely scenario is for water to dissipate in the ground through all the little holes in the draining pipe and not make it through the 80 feet to the sump pit. ie does the soil around the weeping tile need to be saturated for the water to flow horizontally through the pipe vs down through gravity?


That's the issue: the contractor says that if the water didn't make it to the pit that means that there's necessarily a problem with the weeping tile and I'm looking for other experts to agree or not with this conclusion before I pay him or somebody else big box to excavate all around the house to replace the weeping tile.

Thanks again.

[xkvator]

That's definitely not the issue.

The real question is: by pooring water in the weeping tile, which I just did this afternoon, for a good 20 minutes in the opposite section of the house (ie furthest away from the sump pit) , if my sump pit is still dry after that does that NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THE WEEPING TILE IS FAULTY OR NOT?
the issue is trying to help you, through some educated guessing and experience, what the actual cause of your problem is & how to correct it. and that can only be done by asking some questions as we can't "see".
mdshunk has a valid question - apparently you are 100% sure it doesn't drain elsewhere.
it's possible the water is soaking into the ground if it's sandy and not clay soil.
why not get another contractor or 2 out?

[jm1010]

You're right it was an honest question and I will likely get another contrator or two to take a look. I just wondered it someone in the trade has ever hear about doing a weeping tile "hose" test (see if it flows to the sump pit) and if that means anything if there's no residual water in the pit. My got intuitive feel - but I'm not a pro- is that it means nothing as the water table is much below the footing, therefore you'd expect the water in the weeping tile to drain down and not horizontally to the pit.

Can someone please tell me if I'm right or wrong.

Thanks again

Jean

[xkvator]

Jean
as i said...it's possible for the water to run out the slits in the bottom of the ADS pipe...if the contractor who installed it put a couple inches of gravel under the pipe all around your house, it would take a lot of water to fill that.
possibly a fitting came apart from the winter freezing, but that pipe is pretty strong and doesn't just crush without a heavy load put on it...and underground the dirt/gravel surrounding it supports it to keep it from collapsing.

could a downspout drain have come apart and gave you that burst of water?

i'm guessing NO as to the whole system needing replaced

[Unregistered]

From all the responses I received to date I am starting to think that my only problem was the faulty sump pump and nothing else.

There is likely nothing wrong with the weeping tile as trying to flood it by putting a hose in it will likely not bring the water to the sump pit as the water will escape before reaching the sump pit if the weeping tile is functionning correclty and the water table is below the footing.

So this contractor tried to convinced me that my weeping tile was faulty where actually it was doing exactly what it's supposed to do; only carry water in it when the water table has reached the weeping tile. If the water table is below it, it will just drain down by gravity.

[joed]

How long is the hose you are using. Try shoving down the pipe and see if it hits a blockage. Alternately try shoving the hose or a snake up the pipe from the sump pump pit. You could also do a smoke test. Shove a smoke bomb up the sump pipe and plug the pipe. See if smoke comes out your hole.

[Unregistered]

How long is the hose you are using. Try shoving down the pipe and see if it hits a blockage. Alternately try shoving the hose or a snake up the pipe from the sump pump pit. You could also do a smoke test. Shove a smoke bomb up the sump pipe and plug the pipe. See if smoke comes out your hole.

I have quite a long hose but I am doubtfull I'll be able to reach the pit as there is 80 feet in between + a 90 degree house corner angle + the chimney corner.

Any clue where I can get this smoke test kit?

Someone else proposed to tap on the pipe and if I can hear it at the sump pit it's a good indiction that it is not clogged or collapsed.

Thanks again

[Wgoodrich]

When it is raining your perimeter drain will fill to capacity from the earth. When the rain is over the water table drops then teh hose you put in running water into the drain then ran into the earth because the water in the earth had lowered below the tile a day or so after the rain. It would probably take a fire hose to fill that hose enough to get to your sump pit.

It is my opinion those that install 2 - 4" hoses into a sump pit then expect a sump pump with a pressurized 1/2" hose outlet to keep is is not thinking their math right. If you had flooding most likely you need a high GPM pump. Pumps as rated Gallons per minute then rated lift capability to tell you how high that certain pump will pump to get above ground. Some basements depending on the subsurface soil structuring can require two and three High GPM brush pumps to keep up with those two 4" hoses feeding that sump pit.

I strongly suggest plugging that sump pit and leaving for emergencies. Then install an outside cistern down to about 18" below the perimeter drain. Then installing that perimeter drain into the cistern then pumping by a rated pump equal to your influx of ground water in high rain conditions to daylight. Then dropping that daylight pumped line into a 4" drain hose fed gravity to remote location. The daylight connection would be like dropping a washer drain hose into your 2" washer drain standpipe for your plumbing. This will all that if something goes wrong the daylight non contact connection will blow out to surface of the earth to drain across the earth telling you something is wrong but allowing your pump to go ahead and pump with back pressure burning out your pump. Not expensive and solve the massive repairs when basement floods.

That 4" drain line feeds from both directions into that basement sump pit inside your basement. Kind of like sending a written invitation to flood your basement when subsurface flooding overpowers your inside sump pump capability.

My opinion

Wg

[Unregistered]

Obviously you're a creative thinker. I will try to see if I could do some of that. My only beef is that I can't see anywhere i could drain through gravity as I am probably at the lowest level in my area.

I'll keep trying to absorb all the hints you sent my way.

thanks a lot

[Wgoodrich]

Find that area on your property that will drain on the surface by gravity away from your home. Then pump to that location on top of the ground to drain on the surface away from your home or dropping the pumped hose into a subsurface drain installed to a point you want to then drain to daylight by gravity.

I am confused why you would build a basement in the lowest ground elevation in your area. Kind of asking for flooding problems isn't it?

Wg