finding a drain pipe

[Chuck Bradley]

My house was built in 1977. The basement was dry from then until Jan 2005.
We have had several inches of water, several times since then. The only reason for the sudden flooding seems to be that the drain pipe from the perimeter drain is clogged or collapsed. There is no sump pump. There is one drain in the basement floor. It seems to end at gravel after a few inches. The house is on a gentle slope. The pipe that drains water away from the perimeter drain would be more than six feet deep near the house. My problem is finding the pipe. Building code says the pipe can be level or slope down away from the house, and it has to end at daylight. That leaves me with an area of rocky New England forest about 50' x 100' with 27 years of leaves and dropped branches on top of the rocks that were dumped there when the basement was dug. I have plans for the house. They do not show the drain. I checked with the town building department. They have no plans at all. When the water drops below the drain, I will pour in some food color and hope it will eventually show the end. Other ideas are welcome. I called several drain cleaning companies. Some said they could find the pipe until they saw the situation. The only solution proposed was to hire an excavator to dig a trench across the front of the house, across the lawn because the trees and rocks are not there. Then follow the pipe through the forest to the end. Then call a drain cleaner to root it out. There is no access port near the house so I do not even know where the pipe starts. Perhaps it would be easier to just install another drain pipe. It would be 80' to 100' long. What might that cost? Or perhaps I should have a hole made in my basement floor and install a sump pump? Is that safe? What might it cost? Thanks for any help.

[Wgoodrich]

You need to think like a detective recreating the crime or in this case the original installation. What would you do if you did that drain.

Most perimeter drain outlet pipes come from the end of the house closest to the location where it can surface.

Look at the lay of your land. Find an area that is at least 7' deep from what you said depth of pipe and basement.

Once you find the lowest lay of the land where this drain can drain by gravity then look for the drain outlet pipe to be at the end of the house probably within 10' from the end of the house closest to the lowest lay of the land where that daylight drain can be found.

If that many years without maintenance the daylight outlet to surface has probably been covered over by dirt and debris.

If you are unable to locate the daylighted end of that outlet. Then hire a back hoe to dig up from the end of the house closest to the direction where the lowest lay of the land lies. Dig about 10' out and at least 1' deeper than the bottom of the footer. Stay about 10' away to protect integrity of your basement footer. Find the pipe outlet. Look the direction it is aimed and follow a straight line looking for a wet spot where the outlet daylighted location is.

If you still can't find it then rent a routo-router and clean from where you dug up the pipe by the house out to teh end where it daylights. The roto-router will eventually drill through to daylight showing you where your daylight outlet is located. Should be easy to roto out the pipe if it is a 4" pipe.

Be aware you may have a perimeter drain of the septic field that may tie to this if in line with where that perimeter drain is aimed. If septic field not in the area of the line of sight for the basement perimeter drain outlet pipe then disregard the septic drain concern.

Hope this helps

Wg

[Chuck Bradley]

Thanks for some new info. Fortunately, I do not have to worry about the complication of a septic field. It is on the uphill side of the house. The new info is that the pipe is usually near a corner. One corner has a shorter path to a low enough point than the other corner, and the point is also lower, so that improves the odds. The building inspector said most builders lay the pipe level since that saves them a little pipe. He also said perforated 4" plastic pipe was almost universal. I'm still looking for someone with an instrument that can find the pipe. I don't know how it would work. Magnetic is out if the pipe is plastic. Perhaps acoustic or lower gravity because the hollow pipe is less dense than the surroundings. If I can find it, and if I can get it cleaned out, you can be sure I will keep it clean. One of the drain cleaning folks said thouroughly clogged pipes can not be cleaned. I hope he is wrong. Thanks again.

[Newguy]

could this drain be going to a drywell? and that could be the reason for not being able to locate a daylight end?

[xkvator]

chuck
where are your downspouts going...when i put perimeter drains in, i usually put the downspout drain pipe in the same ditch.

in my opinion the quickest solution is as WG said...on the low corner, dig down, but i wouldn't waste a lot of time messing up the yard if you can't find it.
my plan would be - dig down to the perimeter drain and out the 80 to 100' to run a new pipe...BUT if you do find the pipe thats running away from the house, then you can investigate. cut open the top of the pipe to look for silt, etc...have a sewer snake ready if you have one. REMEMBER... you have a backhoe sitting there at $/hr. You may get into a bigger job than expected, since we don't have x-ray vision, you don't know until you dig. maybe no drains at all.
newguy may be right,also. in that case, i'd dig right thru the drywell and run the pipe to daylight if you can.
80 - 100' of ditch starting at 6' deep to 0' shouldn't take more than an hour...or two depending on rock, etc.

the floor drain needs looking into,also. forget about food coloring - get drain tracing dye - its super concentrated & flourescent green...your DPW might give you some if they have it.

BE CAREFUL getting in the ditch - i don't know what type soil you have, but with all the moisture in the ground, there's always a chance the deep part by the house could collapse.

[Chuck Bradley]

I don't think it goes to a dry well, for two reasons. First, the 50'x100' area that might hide the pipe end could be a lake 2' to 3' deep at the edge farthest from the house. I can't imagine anyone digging a drywell when he has that. Second, I think I saw the end of the pipe before buying the house. I just never thought of it again. It is too late to forget about the food coloring. The water level dropped below the drain opening last night, and I added it then. Nothing visible yet, but I have no idea how fast it will diffuse or flow or how much it will be diluted by the time it gets to daylight. The water seems to be dropping about 1/2" every 12 hours. Thanks for the dye suggestion. I'll see if I can get some.
The manager of the local water district told me repairing water mains is more dangerous than being a cop or fireman. Downspouts end with elbows and on to splashblocks that direct the water away from the foundation. I'll go check them now, in case the splash blocks shifted over the winter. Thanks again for all the good ideas.

[xkvator]

i was reading a similar post on another forum from a person in new england - 4" of water in the basement this year, too!!! he has a sump pump with no permanent hookup...just a hose to throw out the window. PIA!!!

chuck...i can't believe whoever put the cellar drain in just ended it in gravel - could a child or... put gravel down the drain?

i'd be fixing that ASAP, but for a temp. fix so the water doesn't come up the 4", get a small pump at h.d/lowes/sears that sits on floor - hook a garden hose to it and run it outside.
MAKE SURE YOU RUN THE CORD/EXTENSION CORD UP & TIE IT TO CEILING JOISTS SO IT'S NOT IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER

[Chuck Bradley]

Here in Acton, the Fire Department will pump out flooded basements if they are not busy with a fire or other public emergency. They did their thing for my first flood. I borrowed a pump from the water district because the water was still coming in after the FD left. It pumps 90 gpm, but like most immersion pumps it will wear out or burn up quickly if not in water. At 90 gpm I would be up all night with it, pump one minute, wait ten minutes or so. Simer makes a line of pumps that run when there is water and stop when there is no water. So I got one. With it, I only had to be up a few times to run the big pump. But that told me I did not have quite enough capacity. Before the next flood I bought a second pump and a water detector. It screams like a smoke detector when wet. It is about $10 at HD and probably other places. I set the Simer over the drain, the other pump near it, and the screamer a few feet away. Now I can sleep through small floods that the Simer can handle. I'm now pretty well set for dealing with a flood. The challenge is avoiding the flood, and finding the outlet of the drain pipe should let me work on that.

Back in the midwest, I bought a house with a sump pump and a short outlet through the wall. In a heavy rain, it ran almost full time. I put a ten foot length of plastic pipe over the outlet and it ran less than 10% of the time.

We have another storm coming tonight and tomorrow. Both pumps can be clogged by debris, so today I will build a shallow box out of window screening to keep the junk away when the pumps sit in the box.

Thanks for the suggestions.