Updating old outlets in an old house

[dkerr]

I am changing some outlet plugs in a friends house. The wiring is not color coded, ie. neutral and hot are the same color wires on the cable, no grounding wire. Existing outlets are 2 prong, and are so lose that when you plug a cord into some it is touch and go if it stays or slips and falls out. Not safe in my opinion for such a lose conenction. The other problem is they have a fancy surge protector bar for their computer system which is pluged into an ungrounded outlet, sort of renders that fancy surge protector bar useless.

Now no 2 prong outlet is even manufactured anymore, only the 3 prong grounded outlets are now sold.

I want to change the existing outlets with ones that actually firmly hold anything plugged into it. I am not about to open up the wall to rerun wires.

The thing is without color coded wires and without a source for a ground, identifying the hot / neutral is not possible, to properly place the correct wire on the brass / silver color screws of a new outlet. I will try to find a ground source then with a meter I should be able to figure out which wire is the hot.

My questions are,

1. If I were to replace an outlet without grounding, it will mean the 3rd prong (ground) is not connected, will it need a label on the outlet to indicate that ??

2. If I can ground it, meaning running a ground wire, I have have a route near a heater rad (hot water heating rad) to get into the basement, can I run a wire along the existing wide baseboard, (their is 3 outlets in the living room), it could be basicly almost hidden on the edge of this baseboard, do I need to use a green wire, or can I run a bare uncovered wire (it is a ground wire), a bare wire on the edge of the baseboard could be hidden with white caulking, I am not sure yet if all 3 outlets are on the same circuit, can a single ground wire serve all 3 outlets, all the outlets are actually mounted into the wide baseboard.

A white wire would actually match the color of the baseboard, but that is likely not allowed as a ground wire.

I also asume the main panel is grounded.

Thank you for any susgestions and help. I am located in Canada


Don

[joed]

Sorry I can't answer the code stuff. To find the hot wire you could use a TICK tester. It glows when you bring beside thehot wire.
I don't know if we sell them separate but the top item here is a tick tester.


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If the link doesn't work for you go to canadiantire.ca and lookup this product.
Product# 52-0137-2

[dkerr]

I think once I figure it out, I will wrap a piece of white tape around the neutral wire and a piece of black tape around the hot for future reference, and as long as no-one changes anything at the panel, it should be a good id in the future.

Don

[dkerr]

One other thing, in the event that the electrical panel does not have a separate grounding bus, can a ground wire be atatched to the neutral bus at the panel ????

Don

[Mr Fixit eh]

It's a lot of work having friends, eh!

It would appear that your #1 is not an option.

Your #2 is a possibility. In Canada you can bond to an adjacent grounded metal water pipe using a separate conductor, or you can run a separate conductor to the system ground. I'm not sure about whether surface-mounting this 'separate conductor' is code-compliant, or not. This ground wire would never carry any current unless there was a ground fault condition, in which case the breaker should trip almost immediately. I suppose there is a remote chance that if this surface-mounted ground conductor made accidental contact with a metal appliance chassis, or something, a person could get 'fried.'

Dangers of #2 would be (1) that in the future someone could make a repair to the plumbing with non-metal pipe, rendering the ground useless; or (2) a future homeowner could remove surface-mounted conductors thinking they were useless.

The best solution would be the GFCI-protected receptacles. You would need one for the first receptacle, and the rest would connect to the 'load' terminals of the first GFCI. In this case the receptacles should be labelled as "No Equipment Ground" Of course this won't help with the surge protector.

Here is a copy of FAQ 6-14-8, "Ungrounded Receptacle, Replacing" from the ESA website http://www.esasafe.com/ :

"Question
I have purchased an older home that has older receptacles with no U ground slot. Can I replace them with modern grounding type receptacles? "


"Answer
It depends. Where grounding type receptacles (3 pin) are used to replace existing ungrounded type receptacles (2 pin), special caution must be exercised. The existing wiring supplying the receptacles may not incorporate a bonding conductor and the installation of a grounding type outlet may create a hazard if the outlet is not properly bonded to ground. Consult the service of a qualified electrical contractor."

"The Code states "Where grounding type receptacles are used in existing installations to replace the ungrounded type, the grounding terminal shall be effectively bonded to ground." The Code permits bonding the receptacle by connection to a metal raceway or cable sheath that is bonded to ground; or by connection to the system ground by means of a separate bonding conductor; or by bonding to an adjacent grounded metal cold water pipe."

"As an alternative to bonding the Code also states "grounding type receptacles without a bonding conductor shall be permitted to be installed provided each receptacle is protected by a ground fault circuit interrupter of the Class A type that is an integral part of this receptacle; or supplied from a receptacle containing a ground fault circuit interrupter of the Class A type; or supplied from a circuit protected by a ground fault circuit interrupter of the Class A type. Where this option is used, no bonding conductor is permitted between outlets unless that bond conductor is in turn connected to ground."

"GFCI protection of the receptacles protects against possible shock hazards but does not provide a ground reference to the U-ground slot of the receptacles. Some appliances require a bond be connected to the U-ground slot in order to function properly. For example, surge protective devices for computer equipment will not function without a ground reference."

"Ontario Electrical Safety Code Rule 26-700."

[dkerr]

surge protective devices for computer equipment will not function without a ground reference."

Sounds like a problem, they have a fancy high end surge protector power bar, pluged into an ungrounded outlet, makes their fancy surge protector useless. In other words, a ground wire needs to be run, but as I said I don't want to open walls. The outlets are all embeded into the wide baseboard. I would prefer running a surfice wire tight with the baseboard, and enter into the basement thru a spot where the heater hot water pipes go thru the floor. The other alternative is a small hole drilled at each outlet to let a ground wire go to the basement directly bellow each outlet. The ground as you said you be always no-current carrying unless a fault occurs which should be extremely brief as it would likely result in a fuse blowing almost immediately.

Don

[mdshunk]

I'm a little bit surprised that you can't get 2 prong receptacles in your area. Are they flatly banned in Canada for replacements? They are a stock item at hardware stores in my area, and I carry a full boxfull on my truck. I probably only use a dozen a year, but I've never had any trouble getting them. It seems like 99% of the stuff you'll plug in in a living room or bedroom is only 2 prong anyhow. Might save some work for you rather than running grounds (with the exception of the surge bar outlet).

[dkerr]

There is also a window air conditioner that is installed during the summer months in the living room. At that location someone has already installed a 3 prong (grounded plug) that is NOT actually grounded.

Don

[Homer]

At that location someone has already installed a 3 prong (grounded plug) that is NOT actually grounded.This is a code violation as you probably realize.

The only way to legally use a 3 prong 120V receptacle is if there is a ground conductor or if it is GFCI protected. You can have one GFCI receptacle and multiple 3 prong receptacles downstream that are labeled "GFCI protected, no equipment ground".

Although you are allowed to bond to plumbing in Canada this is not the best thing to do. After all it is NOT permitted in the US.

Any ground wire run to the panel or plumbing would need to be protected from damage and insulated. Although the ground conductor only carries current during fault conditions, the fault current in a residential service can be as high as 10,000A. This is only for a fraction of a second but the very high power disipated in that brief period can stress the wiring especially the junction points.

As for using a white colored conductor for this this is not permitted.

Homer

[dkerr]

Thanks Homer

I realize the code violation with using 3 prong outlets with no ground, I am just stating what is currently existing.

Questions:

I could use a green insulated wire but does it have to be a solid wire, or can a long extension cord (stranded wire) be used, as it may be a cheaper wire, as plenty of cheap green colored long extension cords are available, and just cut the ends of of it and split it down the middle to get a single green insulated wire.

Next if the wire was placed in a small conduit perhaps hard plastic type tubing, that should ?? be enough to protect it.

Also if I ground to the panel, and in the event there is no separate grounding bus, can it be grounded to the neutral bus at the panel location.

Don

[Homer]

Using wire from a cable assembly would be a violation.

However, you can buy T90 green #14 stranded wire very cheaply by the foot or meter at any large home improvement store like HD. For a few dollars you should be able to get enough to suit the needs of many of the outlets.

Conduit for protection is great.

If there is only a common ground/neutral bar then you would be able to connect the ground wire there. However, if you have an older fuse panel with a sectioned off service disconnect section to it, the neutral to ground bonding would be in that section. In that case you would have to have a separate ground and neutral bar to be compliant anyway.

Homer

[dkerr]

There is a home depot close by, so I will check there for the ground (green) wire. Also look for conduit.

I have to go into their basement to take a good look at what we are dealing with as far as the panel arrangement.

Don

[Mr Fixit eh]

Did you see this thread? http://www.selfhelpforums.com/showthread.php?t=3292

There still may be other options.

steve

[dkerr]

Well we have most of it done. What a mix of wiring, from cables with 2 wires the same color (eithe 2 black, or a black and a brown, or 2 orange, to 2 cables with 1 wire in each going into the box). Replaced all the electrical boxes as well as all outlets and switches on the first floor, all now grounded outlets. Wires were identified and with white and black electrical tape marked which wire was neutral and hot.

One wall light fixture had a box very rusted was a pain to remove the box, nothing that I have seen before, had a center nut that held the box on, but did manage to get it off, only to find it had been mounted a steel bar, which we found out ran 2 feet inside the wall, got it ripped out and a new box installed, and used wide fiberglass tape and drywall compound to repair.

Replaced 2 ceiling fixtures and even they weren't standard boxes, managed to make them work. The one in the dining room, was in very bad shape and the old fixture was very rusted inside, when you touched the wires the insulation would crumble to dust, so I tried to protect the remaining insualted wire in the box by wraping with electrical tape. I would normally have replaced the box, but not sure the condition of the wire above it or the insulation on those wires above it, decided not too at this time, one screw was rusted and previouslly broke, so I had only one good screw hole to mount the ficture into, and managed to use a piece of stiff wire wrap around the mounting cross bar to hold the other side firmly in place which could be used to mount the new fixture to.

Grounded the outlets to a water pipe in the basement which is allowed in Canada, I put the grounding clamp between the city water pipe entrance and the water meter.

I think I am going to run a dedicated telephone line from the telephone entrance to a new jack at the computer as the the phone line currently in use is being strung thru a doorway into the other room, and should they decide on dsl a good line will be benificial straight to the computer area.

They also have a well greased up exhuast range hood with a regular cord hanging above and near the heating elements to a outlet plug a few feet further down the wall. Not exactly sits commfortable with me. May replace with a new exhaust hood and newly wired.

Don't I love working for free.

Don

[Mr Fixit eh]

Sounds like quite the adventure. Great having friends, eh!

Steve

[dkerr]

I must also add that the most used tool (and cheapest tool) was a metal coat (straightened out) hanger that a wire could be taped to and pulled thru the floor or wall.

Don

[Sixer]

I'm a little bit surprised that you can't get 2 prong receptacles in your area. Are they flatly banned in Canada for replacements? They are a stock item at hardware stores in my area, and I carry a full boxfull on my truck. I probably only use a dozen a year, but I've never had any trouble getting them. It seems like 99% of the stuff you'll plug in in a living room or bedroom is only 2 prong anyhow. Might save some work for you rather than running grounds (with the exception of the surge bar outlet).

I don't think they are flatly banned in Canada as there is a reference to 2-prong receptacles in the Code, but I have yet to find them available where I live. I just replace them with a GFCI receptacle, solves the problem and meets Code requirements.

Just one more note, if you can't tell which wire is the hot and you don't have a volt-tick, you can use a neon tester (they were common years ago), you can use this to find the hot wire when you have no ground reference. All you do is touch one lead to the wire and hold the other lead in your hand. The neon will glow very faintly on the hot wire. You won't get a shock if it's a NEONtester, but don't use any other kind of tester with this method otherwise you could get a shock. I've used the neon tester many times in older homes with knob and tube wiring.