wiring multiple lights with switch at the end of run

[dhancock]

I have seen a few messages regarding this topic but I am very new to this and I want to be sure i get it right. What I am doing is installing 4 can lights with the switch at the end of the run. I am familiar with wiring just one light but I am still unclear on multiple lights. Can someone explain the wiring on the lights and pretend you are talking to a third grader. :) After you explain it, I should be able to figure it out but will they be wired in series or parallel. Thanks!!

[Ohm1]

A few questions: When you say your switch is at the end of the run, are you saying you will have two or more switches? If so, then tell us where the switches are located in reference to each other. Also, how old is your home--just curious.

Write back!

[dhancock]

A few questions: When you say your switch is at the end of the run, are you saying you will have two or more switches? If so, then tell us where the switches are located in reference to each other. Also, how old is your home--just curious.

Write back!

Sorry, I guess I should explain my project. Maybe "end of run" wasn't the right term to use. The house is 15 years old and I am finishing the basement. I am wanting to bring the power in to the lights first and then run to the switch, a switch loop I guess. I am wanting to use just one switch to control all 4 lights. Is this possible?....and okay according to code?

[Ohm1]

It's perfectly fine to use one switch to control one or more lights. Educational note: It's ok to control one or more lights from a switch, but the question is, "can your circuit handle the load." For instance (This is a wild example): If I added 5 wall sconces and 9 recessed cans at 60 watts ea, to a 15 amp 120v circuit ( 80 % of 1800 watts max recommended) that already had 80 percent of the recommended load. I would then be overloading that circuit. Just some food! :)

[dhancock]

It's perfectly fine to use one switch to control one or more lights. Educational note: It's ok to control one or more lights from a switch, but the question is, "can your circuit handle the load." For instance (This is a wild example): If I added 5 wall sconces and 9 recessed cans at 60 watts ea, to a 15 amp 120v circuit ( 80 % of 1800 watts max recommended) that already had 80 percent of the recommended load. I would then be overloading that circuit. Just some food! :)

I made sure that the load isn't going to exceed the maximum, I did the calculations when I was mappign out the circuits. Back to the initial question, can you tell me what the wiring will look like to the lights and to the switch? Or do you know of a good diagram on the internet? Thanks for your help.

[Ohm1]

Above--Under title: SWITCH/FAN/LIGHT wiring options-- this forum provides the information you need. If you are in need of futher information, then get back to us, and we will gladly help you. Sorry for not responding fully, but I had to step away after the ED. post.

[joed]

I have seen a few messages regarding this topic but I am very new to this and I want to be sure i get it right. What I am doing is installing 4 can lights with the switch at the end of the run. I am familiar with wiring just one light but I am still unclear on multiple lights. Can someone explain the wiring on the lights and pretend you are talking to a third grader. :) After you explain it, I should be able to figure it out but will they be wired in series or parallel. Thanks!!

I need to clear up how you want to connect the lights.
Is the power coming into the 1st light then the other lights then the switch.
as
1.power - L1 -L2 - L3 - L4 - switch.
or
2. power - sw - L1 - L2 - L3 - L4
or
3. power - L1 - SW and L1 - L2 - L3 - L4

Option 1 requires 14/3 between L1 - L2 - L3 - L4
Option 2 & 3 requires only the use 14/2.

Tell me which option you intend to use and I will tell you the wire connections.

[dhancock]

I need to clear up how you want to connect the lights.
Is the power coming into the 1st light then the other lights then the switch.
as
1.power - L1 -L2 - L3 - L4 - switch.
or
2. power - sw - L1 - L2 - L3 - L4
or
3. power - L1 - SW and L1 - L2 - L3 - L4

Option 1 requires 14/3 between L1 - L2 - L3 - L4
Option 2 & 3 requires only the use 14/2.

Tell me which option you intend to use and I will tell you the wire connections.


Option 1 is what Im working with. Thanks.

[joed]

Ok here's the connections
At light 1
power cable(14/2) black to L2 cable(14/3) black.
All whites (3) together including L1 white.
L1 black to red from L2 cable.

At L2 L3 same connecton at both lights
Black to black
All white(3) together
Black from light to reds(2) from both cables.

At last light
White from L3 to L4 white
Black from L3 to White to switch.Remark the white black with tape or a marker.
Black from switch to black from L4 and red to L3.

At switch.

Black on one screw white on other screw. Remark white black with tape or marker.

Connect all grounds in all boxes.

If this circuit is on a 20 amp breaker all wires should be #12 instead of #14.

[dhancock]

Ok here's the connections
At light 1
power cable(14/2) black to L2 cable(14/3) black.
All whites (3) together including L1 white.
L1 black to red from L2 cable.

At L2 L3 same connecton at both lights
Black to black
All white(3) together
Black from light to reds(2) from both cables.

At last light
White from L3 to L4 white
Black from L3 to White to switch.Remark the white black with tape or a marker.
Black from switch to black from L4 and red to L3.

At switch.

Black on one screw white on other screw. Remark white black with tape or marker.

Connect all grounds in all boxes.

If this circuit is on a 20 amp breaker all wires should be #12 instead of #14.


I see what my problem was. That was exactly what I needed. Thanks a million!

[Wgoodrich]

It would probably be much easier if you just ran the switch leg 14/2 from the switch to the first light where the power entered. Much less complicated to do.

Just my opinion

Ohm

Where are you getting the 80% rule of loading general lighting of a dwelling in the NEC?

Curious

Wg

[dhancock]

I'm going to show my ignorance again. Im assuming the way you describe still requires 12/3 wire between the lights, I have a 20 amp circuit. I already have 12/2 wired between the lights but it wont be a big deal to change it. Thanks.

[joed]

Yes you need this setup.
the -- equals 12/2
the == equals 12/3

power-- L1 == L2 == L3 == L4 -- switch

[dhancock]

Thanks guys for your input. By the way, this is a great site.

[jdulberg]

I am looking to do something similar with 4 recessed lights in a bathroom. Power is currently at the light. Is it possible to take a lead off one of the lights (before they are switched I'm assuming) to power a bathroom fan? I'd like the fan & lights to be switched separately. I would like to install a gfci in the bathroom as well.

Any suggestions would be great!

Thanks,

Jason

[joed]

If the power comes into the light then YES you can get power for your fan from the light.

[Ohm1]

It would probably be much easier if you just ran the switch leg 14/2 from the switch to the first light where the power entered. Much less complicated to do.

Just my opinion

Ohm

Where are you getting the 80% rule of loading general lighting of a dwelling in the NEC?

Curious

Wg
Sorry! I was misinformed about this information. I didn't research. My fault! I admit, I slipped! :)

[Wgoodrich]

Ohm, your general lighting and multiple outlet branch circiuts in a dwelling are noncontinuous loads. However be careful, all utilization equipment such as dishwashers, garbage disposals, furnaces, a/c, water heater and the like are considered as continuous use using the 80% rule.

Rule to remember;

Those areas within a dwelling, motel room, apartment unit are considered as intermittent noncontinuous loads allowing 100% rating except for utilization equipment in those areas. If you step out of that motel room or out of that apartment unit then you just stepped into the continuous load areas requiring the 80% loading.

Good Luck

Wg

[jcampb]

Can you expand on this? Are you saying I can get the power from the first 14/2 light, go to the swich and then run the rest of the lights using 14/2??



It would probably be much easier if you just ran the switch leg 14/2 from the switch to the first light where the power entered. Much less complicated to do.

Just my opinion

Ohm

Where are you getting the 80% rule of loading general lighting of a dwelling in the NEC?

Curious

Wg

[6pack]

Would like to mention here as someone who replys to Q's as others. Sometimes I view these questions, not knowing for sure what we are working with. When you say power "AT LIGHT" that is not always a clear picture as to what you may have. Are you saying this is an existing light with power in it and now you intend to install 4 new one's. (removing old)? This would present a problem unless one of the new light's are going to be in exact same location, as J boxes can not be buried in the ceiling. Hope I'm clear on that! If this is a NEW installation from panel, take power(120V) to new switch location and from there run to your lights. Daisy linking from first to 2nd and 3rd and 4th. Then also run a cable to your fan location from switch box.. A 2 gang box required at switch location. Outlet in bath will require a seperate circuit(20 amp) and gfi protection.
IF you have already installed lights with power to 1st light,location? you may have couple choices how to connect. Would be easier for you to repost "EXACTLY" what you have there for wiring now and "Exactly what you want to do." EX= switch, light and fan locations? Recess can J box fill may be a problem,depending on size? GL

[Wgoodrich]

Seems we have three subjects going in this post.

If a circuit starts with 12 awg wire then it should stay 12 awg wire. If a circuit starts with 14 awg wire it should stay 14 awg wire.

The post speaking of running power to the first light then carrying that power with a 3 wire cable using the red wire going through each light to the other end is making more work for himself but it will work. Just remember the switch much be a break in the hot line from power going to the first light fixture after the switch. Then all other lights controlled by that switch must be powered throught that switch whether directly from that switch or through each light fixture. Also be aware that the hot and neutral and grounding wire must be in each cable serving a light fixture box.

To me it would have been much easier to run the switch leg to the first light and permenant power to the first light or directly to the switch. Running power through each light box to get constant power to the switch than back through each light box is kind of like going to california from indian by way of florida, long way of doing it and more confusing if run daisy chain from power through each light fixture then to teh switch last. See it all the time in this forum but never saw why it is done.

Hope this helps

Wg

[jcampb]

Sorry for the confusion. I have a light circuit for the cans. Power starts at the panel and goes to the first light and then daisy chains to the other 5 recessed lights. My original plan was to use a switch loop on the last light and terminate the circuit at a single pole switch. I used 12/2 so the circuit looks like this Panel==L1==L2==etc.==L6==switch.
The switch would have a white wire(tagged black) and a black wire. In reading other posts it looks like this is not the proper way to wire.



Would like to mention here as someone who replys to Q's as others. Sometimes I view these questions, not knowing for sure what we are working with. When you say power "AT LIGHT" that is not always a clear picture as to what you may have. Are you saying this is an existing light with power in it and now you intend to install 4 new one's. (removing old)? This would present a problem unless one of the new light's are going to be in exact same location, as J boxes can not be buried in the ceiling. Hope I'm clear on that! If this is a NEW installation from panel, take power(120V) to new switch location and from there run to your lights. Daisy linking from first to 2nd and 3rd and 4th. Then also run a cable to your fan location from switch box.. A 2 gang box required at switch location. Outlet in bath will require a seperate circuit(20 amp) and gfi protection.
IF you have already installed lights with power to 1st light,location? you may have couple choices how to connect. Would be easier for you to repost "EXACTLY" what you have there for wiring now and "Exactly what you want to do." EX= switch, light and fan locations? Recess can J box fill may be a problem,depending on size? GL

[Homer]

Sorry for the confusion. I have a light circuit for the cans. Power starts at the panel and goes to the first light and then daisy chains to the other 5 recessed lights. My original plan was to use a switch loop on the last light and terminate the circuit at a single pole switch. I used 12/2 so the circuit looks like this Panel==L1==L2==etc.==L6==switch.
The switch would have a white wire(tagged black) and a black wire. In reading other posts it looks like this is not the proper way to wire.


If you have the switch at the end of your run, then you need to have 3-conductor cable between all lights, as Joed discussed in one of his posts.

In order to use only 2-conductor cable, power must be wired to the switch first or to the light closest to the switch.

I hope this helps.

Homer

[jcampb]

If you have the switch at the end of your run, then you need to have 3-conductor cable between all lights, as Joed discussed in one of his posts.

In order to use only 2-conductor cable, power must be wired to the switch first or to the light closest to the switch.

I hope this helps.

Homer

I'm going to go the easy route and run from the panel to the switch, than on to the lights.

[6pack]

See what you mean WG?? 3 post's! what happened to Jdulberg? party with the fan also?? WHEN posting a question start your own thread if an entire different installation, only add's to confusion for those trying to help.Require's to much rereading and clarafication who your helping. Opp's I've done it myself.

[Pastor Matt]

Is there a diagram to explain this?

[wolfchmm]

I used the advice, it worked like a charm! I connected the 4 can lights, power from outlet to light 1, then used the 12/3 between lights 1,2,3 and 4.
Thanks

[cwillfong]

I need to clear up how you want to connect the lights.
Is the power coming into the 1st light then the other lights then the switch.
as
1.power - L1 -L2 - L3 - L4 - switch.
or
2. power - sw - L1 - L2 - L3 - L4
or
3. power - L1 - SW and L1 - L2 - L3 - L4

Option 1 requires 14/3 between L1 - L2 - L3 - L4
Option 2 & 3 requires only the use 14/2.

Tell me which option you intend to use and I will tell you the wire connections.

how would you hook up option 3?

[joed]

At L1 connect all the white, except the one to the switch together and to the fixture white.
Connect the ppower in black to the switch white.
Connect the switch black to the fixture black and to the black going to the other fixtures.
At the other fixtueres match the colours. Conenct all the blacks. Connect all the whites. Connect all the grounds.

[alias11]

I need to clear up how you want to connect the lights.
Is the power coming into the 1st light then the other lights then the switch.
as
1.power - L1 -L2 - L3 - L4 - switch.
or
2. power - sw - L1 - L2 - L3 - L4
or
3. power - L1 - SW and L1 - L2 - L3 - L4

Option 1 requires 14/3 between L1 - L2 - L3 - L4
Option 2 & 3 requires only the use 14/2.

Tell me which option you intend to use and I will tell you the wire connections.

And....how would you do #2?

I have 1 switch and 2 lights and I am using 14/2. Currently this is how I have it wired....at the switch I have the power wires pigtailed with the wires going to L1 and to the switch. At L1 I have the 2 blacks pigtailed and the 2 whites connected to the fixture, then at L2 I have the black and the white connected to the fixture. What did I do wrong?

[suemarkp]

Number 2 is the best, most common, and easiest. At the switch, the power black and the black to L1 go to the switch screw terminals. The whites are wire nutted together. At L1, the incoming and outgoing black get nutted together along with the black for the light. The incoming and outgoing whites get wire nutted together along with the white for the light. At L2 match wires colors to the light wires. Bare grounds in all boxes get tied together with pigtails to any green screws and metal boxes.

[actioncj17]

I need to clear up how you want to connect the lights.
Is the power coming into the 1st light then the other lights then the switch.
as
1.power - L1 -L2 - L3 - L4 - switch.
or
2. power - sw - L1 - L2 - L3 - L4
or
3. power - L1 - SW and L1 - L2 - L3 - L4

Option 1 requires 14/3 between L1 - L2 - L3 - L4
Option 2 & 3 requires only the use 14/2.

Tell me which option you intend to use and I will tell you the wire connections.

My situation is very similar. Can you please tell me the wiring conncections for Option 3. Your help is greatly aprreciated. Thanks.

[6pack]

you must have been doing your homework, by doing a search. Dates on posts had me wondering what year it is?
Anyways go back 4 posts and reread Joed's explanation(dated 12/5/07)
If this is what you have(working with), your set!
GL

[joed]

Here is new picture for you.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh183/joed57/lt-sw-lt-lt-lt.jpg

[actioncj17]

Thanks 6pack and Joed. This helps so much. I'm new to this site but already love it.

[actioncj17]

ok so what if I want to add a ceiling fan on a seperate switch. What happens at the switch box using option 3? There will be a total of 2 switches. thanks

[joed]

Where will the ceiling fan cable connect into this system?

[actioncj17]

If possible I would like to connect it into the system at the switch box. Will that work?

[joed]

new drawing

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh183/joed57/lt-sw-sw-fan-lt-lt-lt.jpg

[actioncj17]

Thanks for the drawing joed but I'm still scratching my head at the switch box. Is it possible for you to write that part out for me. Sorry I'm kind of slow.
Thanks

[joed]

White (neutral)wire comes in and connects to all other whites.
Black is power and connects to one terminal on each switch.
The light switch connects to the black and red wires going to the other lights.
The fan switch connects to the black wire going to the fan.

[actioncj17]

Thanks this really helps. Since you mentioned black and red wires am I still using a 14/2 cable or am I now using 14/3? I assumed from your earlier post that option 3 only needed 14/2 cable. Thanks again

[joed]

You can't do this 14/2. You need 14/3 between the first light and the switch box.

[actioncj17]

So the only 14/3 wire is between the switch and the first light? everything else can be a 14/2 correct?

[6pack]

Sounds like (as you said) not sure of yourself here.
I think you need to explain why you choose OPT 3 to connect up your lights and switch.
Your going to run into some J Box fill (# of wires) on that recess can. I'd suggest you repost exactly what you have there now! An existing power scorce? adding new power scorce from another location or panel??? Do this! much simpler way as i see it then what i'm reading. Unless i'm mising something.

[actioncj17]

Your right 6 pack I should explain my exact situation. I would have started a new thread but I'm new to the site and didn't think I was able to. Ok here is why I chose option 3.

I have existing power coming from an outlet to an existing fixture then down to a switch. Both cables are 14/3 armored bx.

What I've done so far is remove the existing ceiling box for the existing fixture so It can be moved over slightly to align with the others I'm adding.

Now what I plan to do is keep these existing cables so they will work with the 4 flush mounted lights and the ceiling fan. This is why I chose option 3 but if I should be using another option please let me know. Let me know if you need anymore information. Thank you both for all your help.

[6pack]

to walk you through this>
First I suspect many will recommend to remove armored cable! Not so! Is your situation?
(1) that your working with exposed Studs and wiring?
(2) the walls are closed(plaster, drywall,ETC)?
(3) do you plan to remove existing plaster, drywall to install lights. fan and switches?
(4) are you removing a suface mounted fixture, with standard round box, now flush with plaster surface?
(5)are you installing recess fixture's? If so how did you plan to wire physically. By removing plaster ETC?
Repeating myself here, answer these and sure then we can answer your ideas, so you'll feel good(doing right not just quessing.
I'm slow too when wanting to understand something correctly we all are
and thats why we ask. No problem.

[actioncj17]

To answer your questions;

Like you said I do not think it is possible to remove these armored cables and if they are not used I will most likely leave then dead in the wall.

A majority of the ceiling is closed. I have opened up a 7'x3' section of the ceiling drywall since it already had to be replaced from water damage above. That has helped me locate where the wires run to and where the power is coming from. It will also help me cut holes in the joist to run the wires to get to the last 2 fixtures. I think patching this should be no problem and if possible do not want to open any more holes.


The ceiling is currently drywall with a layer of popcorn which I am currently removing (I hate that stuff).


There is no plaster at all. The holes for the 4 lights and ceiling fan are cut and I plan to use remodel boxes which are metal. These will not be recessed fixtures but surface mounted.

I think that answers everything. Let me know if you need anything else.Thanks

[6pack]

If understanding you correctly? (since everyone has thier own way as to what they call the different style of boxes.)
You may have to cut open wall area now housing wall switch, since you have to get another 14-2 cable down to the switch box for the fan. Fishing maybe a possibility, but removing that old box will be a problem without damaging plaster. (iffy)
OR you would have to locate new fan switch in another location and fish wires to it. Hopefully wothout damaging plaster there also?.
With the opening you now have to repair I see abit more as no problem making wiring much easier.
Which would be your choice.
There are many choices on how to do what seems like a simple task?
This is what do you call "ah 6 to 1 half ah dozen to the other"!!

[actioncj17]

I'm gonna give option 3 a go this weekend. I hope to be back posting pictures. Thank you both for your help again.