Ignition Lockout on Carrier

[Roger]

Hi, Marc looks like its my turn to have furnace problems. Carrier Weather Master 8000 series Model#58WAV091-14. Flashing error code 14 "ignition lockout"...after 3 attempts lockout occurs and resets in 3 hours, refer to error 34 igniton proving failure. "If flame not sensed after the trial for ignition period the control will repeat the ignition sequence 3 times befpre going into lockout".
Description: The ignitor glows white hot during igniton trial and burners light but in about 10 seconds or less the furnace shuts down and tries ignition 3 more times then locks out. I can reset manually though and ask it to try again but still wont stay lit. My first thought was a dirty flame sensor so cleaned it but still problem persists. Gas valve is on of course and gas supply is on. Gas valve is getting 24 volts and is opening when asked. During the call for heat I'm getting about .6 microamps on the flame sensor. I'm thinking bad flame sensor but it really looks good in appearance. Not sure if I'm testing right but L1 to the module shows 120 volts , I'm assuming that should be a constant as it is not part of the controll circuitry. Any ideas before I call an HVAC tech?

[mdshunk]

Normally, 0.2 microamps is the lower threashold before you'll get "no flame sensed". Normally your flame sense signal will be around 2.0 microamps.

Make no mistake, the flame sensor does not "go bad". It's just a steel rod (special steel that's not supposed to corrode easily). If you have a damp flame sensor, or a damp connection on the board, that will cause a low flame rectification signal. Recheck the flame sense wire on the board, and the wire's connection to the flame sense rod. Grounding is very very important for proper flame rectification. A good ground between the control board's ground terminal and the burner housing where the flame sense rod bolts is quite important. Clean the mounting area where the burner connects to the chassis. Do everything you can do to assure a good ground path between the control module and the actual blue gas flame. Make sure that the hot and neutral aren't reversed at the furnace (doubtful). Also, if there's something messed up with the gas pressure (bad gas valve or pressure regulator) the flame will not be as bold, and you'll get this problem too. Sometimes these can be head scratchers until the "ah-hah!" moment.

[Roger]

Hello Marc, very sorry for the delay getting back to this thread. My neighbor Asked me about 6:00 pm to help him hang his cabinets for his kitchen. Second screw we shot in the wall hit a water line he forgot he relocated. Of course we had to miss the stud in order to do this....crap...SOOOOO after a few choice words we had to pull the new sink basin cut open the drywall and make the repair. Believe me I felt his pain.......
Ok that...aha...moment arrived after checking the ground wire you spoke of for the sensor terminal. It was a little iffy but after making it better still had the problem but when I cycled the ignition trial the "you dummy" hit me square between the eyes. The burner that the sensing rod uses for proof of flame wasnt igniting but the other three burners were fine. Cleaned the burner about 30 minutes ago and and she lit all four burners and appears to operating as it should. Whew....its been one of those days....thanks Marc.

[Ron E.]

On a Carrier 8000TS, less than 1.5 years old, to boot. It actually started doing this after about 4 months of heavy winter use (installed new in September '03, problem started January '04). I had service out no less than 4 times then (the subcontractors after hours and on weekends were next to worthless). The first time they cleaned the flame sensor. Next they said it the problem was "enviromental" and installed additional cold air feed from the attic. Finally, at my suggestion, since it seemed the ceramic ignitor was on and the gas valve was opening, they increased the gas pressure on the unit, and that seemed to do it (I know cars, guitars, and computers - not HVAC).

Well, recently started doing it again, though not as bad as last January. It almost never lights on the first try, it's usually the 2nd, and sometimes the third. Does that still indicate a gas flow issue ? Is that normal. Also, on occasion, it will light then almost immediately blow back out, only to try again (if it hasn't hit lockout status). There are 3 burners fyi, and though the rightmost one probably lights a millisecond or so before the others, all 3 fire every time it is successful.

I'm going to get Carrier back out here, but unlike last time when lockout was practically guaranteed, it usually lights - but at least I can show them that it rarely lights on the first try and mention the blow out condition.

I also assume I've got to cover the labor - something I find unacceptable for a 1.5 year old unit, so any advice on appealing to Carrier corporate would be appreciated.

TIA.

[mdshunk]

Jeeze, it could be so many things. What I find so troubling is that you described that they "upped the gas pressure". While that sometimes needs done, did they actually check it with a manometer and adjust to match the data plate pressure listed on the unit? Did the unit ever fire off with a big "whoosh!"? Did the unit ever do this more than once? There's a couple of things I'd check if I was serviicing your unit. First, I'd actually take a manometer reading of the actual pressure leaving the gas valve to the main burner. Too high or too low will both cause your troubles. I'd also check for a "popped" heat enchanger. The heat exchangers in most units nowadays are just crimped, and they can pop open at the seams if the unit ever fires off with a whoosh. Also, I'd check the smoke pipe and chimney for collapse, birds nests, debris, etc. Have the burners ever been physically taken out and washed or cleaned? This has solved many problems like yours too.

Just some stuff you can check on or have them check. The biggest point I'd like to make is to have actual manometer readings taken of the burner pressure. Anything less is just guessing.

[thoang21]

Hi,

I'm getting the same error status code #34 and then #14. I checked everything mention in this posting and the only thing I'm sure is the grounding portion.

My furnace come on fine and the blue flame is fine...so everything is working except it stop before it reaches the temperture set.



"A good ground between the control board's ground terminal and the burner housing where the flame sense rod bolts is quite important. Clean the mounting area where the burner connects to the chassis. Do everything you can do to assure a good ground path between the control module and the actual blue gas flame"

So my question is how do I ground from the terminal to the burner housing. Can some help describe exactly what to do here.

I have called two Sears guy out and they seem like that don't know what they were doing. They said it might be the heating sensor or it is circuit board. I know this is not the case bcause this is a brand new furnace.

thanks in advance.
--Tim

[delsboy2]

Hi all
I have been having the code 14 flame lockout also. i would get up in the morning and house is very cold,,furnace not working,the only way to get it lit off was to shut off control power and turn back on and it would light off,but sometimes shut down before it reached thermostat setting.sometimes it would run for days with no problems and sometimes 3 or 4 times a day give me problems. While performing the flame proving procedure I found the common wire for t-stat broken where it hooks to t-stip,it appears that vibration while running would cause connection to be lost and shut down,when there was no vibration (I E not running ) there was a good connection. hope this post might help others solve thier problems. I also looked all over the internet for a PDF of troubleshooting guide and owners manual and also searched Carriers site and did not even find my model # listed on carriers site????? my unit was installed in 1998. model 58wav091-14.
can anyone tell me where to get any manuals online?
Thanks
Ed

[suemarkp]

All I can find is this:
http://xpedio.carrier.com/idc/groups/public/documents/techlit/om58-93.pdf

Here's is where you normally start for Carrier literature, but your 58WAV model is not a choice once you select Gas Furnaces:
http://www.residential.carrier.com/apps/finddocs/form.jsp?b=c