Installing hardwood floor (my first time). Any tips?

[Guido]

In just over a week I'll be helping my inlaws rip out 20 year old carpet from their foyer and living room and install oak flooring. Eventually we'll also do the dining room and family room. This is new for all of us.

The oak is pre-finished (no need to sand, seal, etc). It comes in 6 or 7 foot strips and I believe it's 4" wide. We'll be doing about 450 square feet.
The place selling the wood will let us borrow a manual nailer (they don't lend out power nailers) and a how-to video.

I did some research and know the basics, I'm just wondering if anyone has any hands-on experience. Here's what I know so far:

Mix the batches to distribute color variences.
Let wood sit for a couple days to stabilize moisture content.
Vary joint locations for nicer looks.
I'm sure the video will explain other basics.

Here are some questions:
1) My guess is a miter saw would be ideal in cutting the pieces - should I invest in one? Otherwise I have a circular saw and portable work bench I can use. (MY problem is I don't have room to store a miter saw, but if it's cheaper than renting then I'll buy - if necessary).

2) Should we buy/rent a power nailer instead of using the manual one they provide us?

3) When the carpet is out should we go nuts screwing down the subfloor every 12 inches or so? It does "creek" in a few places. What screws should we use?

4) In the foyer there's a curved staircase (with a curved wall) and a couple angled walls - any tips on how to tackle these?

5) Between the foyer and living room is a 5' wide doorway. The wood floor will pass through here, parallel to the threshold. There is a brick fireplace opposite this doorway. What are our options if the doorway and fireplace are not parallel? Would we need to cut some pieces lengthwise at the fireplace to make up the difference?

6) If/when my inlaws decide to replace the carpet on their staircase with oak runners, is this a do-it-yourselfer job or should we hire someone. The rest of the staircase is oak, but we'll need to remove the railing and cut the runners to size (it's a curved staircase). It doesn't look easy.

Thanks!

[Hatter]

1) My guess is a miter saw would be ideal in cutting the pieces - should I invest in one? Otherwise I have a circular saw and portable work bench I can use. (MY problem is I don't have room to store a miter saw, but if it's cheaper than renting then I'll buy - if necessary).

Miter saws are great, but I would not go out and buy one for just putting in a wood floor. A circular saw will do you just fine. A good trick for cutting straight with a circular saw is holding your speed square on the piece your cutting with one hand and use the circular saw in the other(if that makes sense) - it will give you a nice straight line every time.


2) Should we buy/rent a power nailer instead of using the manual one they provide us?

I think a manual nailer will be fine. Definitely dont go buy one just for this - they are normally over $500

3) When the carpet is out should we go nuts screwing down the subfloor every 12 inches or so? It does "creek" in a few places. What screws should we use?

Yeah, I would go around and put some screws in the subfloor where there are creeks.

4) In the foyer there's a curved staircase (with a curved wall) and a couple angled walls - any tips on how to tackle these?

Depends on how big of a curve. If it is slight, it doesnt need to be perfectly cut- you will cover up some of it with shoe molding. Otherwise, you might want to use a coping saw.

5) Between the foyer and living room is a 5' wide doorway. The wood floor will pass through here, parallel to the threshold. There is a brick fireplace opposite this doorway. What are our options if the doorway and fireplace are not parallel? Would we need to cut some pieces lengthwise at the fireplace to make up the difference?

Don't really know what you mean here.

6) If/when my inlaws decide to replace the carpet on their staircase with oak runners, is this a do-it-yourselfer job or should we hire someone. The rest of the staircase is oak, but we'll need to remove the railing and cut the runners to size (it's a curved staircase). It doesn't look easy.

Here is a website that should help:
http://www.floridawoodfloors.net/hardwoodinstaller/stairs-measuring.htm


Hope this helps

[Guido]

Thanks for the tips! Especially the circular saw one.

Regarding my question #5. I attached a simple drawing.
If there is an uneven gap what can we do to make it look good because this is the main focal point of the room.

If we taper cut a wood strip lengthwise, wouldn't it look like crap because there is no moulding on the brick?

Regarding question #6 - I may leave that to a professional. It's a spiral staircase and I imagine cutting the tread with all those angles would be a nightmare.

[Mr Fixit eh]

On the other hand, the compound miter saw is awfully nice to have. It seems like you're a pretty handy guy. You'd sure get some good use out of it. Every new job is a chance to buy at least one new power tool. In fact, you'd think the inlaws (or was that outlaws) should be paying the bill for the new tool......or were they the ones that just bought the new DW.

I bought a new Makita dual compound sliding miter saw for my kitchen reno. It's marvelous. Don't know how I ever managed without it.

[Guido]

I'd love to have one, and I'm sure I'd use it, but I just don't have too much room to store it. My workshed is kinda small so I'd have to lug it out every time I need it. But I know eventually I'll own one. If I see one one sale in the next week or so I may spring for it. Even just a small one that's easy to move around.

I don't mind paying for it - my inlaws helped tremendously in renovating my house. And you're right, they did buy us the DW.

[bmwpower]

With regard to the fireplce, how much out of square is it? How big of a gap on the right side?

Is the front surface of the fireplace straight?

[noel]

as far as cutting boards to fit up against a curved wall, go buy a cheap drawing compass. lay the board down and up against the wall at the end. then with the compass set at about an inch wide, run the point along the wall and let the pencil mark the board. cut the board with a coping or jig saw. then lay it down up against the curved wall, mark the other end for lenght and cut off.

[BigFred2004]

Just got done installing 700sq ft of Bellawood hickory. First time doing it. Went very well with some lessons learned.

Tools: I did the majority of the job using a circular saw and a jig saw. I have a compound miter, but the circular was easier to use and all of the cuts will be hidden by shoe molding. A good straight edge (8 ft) was very helpful to me in starting the first course. I rented the pneumatic nailer from HD ($120 for a week) and it was crucial to the success. (I bought a box of staples and ended up using only a quarter of them, even nailing every 8 inches or so.) I bought a hammer stapler to install the felt paper, worked well. I did buy a palm nailer, but that was more trouble than it was worth. (However, I did keep it, since every DIY job requires at least one new power tool purchase, right???) That was about it for the tools.

Process: I only had a few squeaks, and they were quickly solved with 2 inch drywall screws from above. I didn’t renail the subfloor, just the nails that had raised. The first course is the most critical, and any deviations from straight here will be exacerbated as you get farther away from it. I used my straight edge to line up the boards and ensure the leading edge of adjacent boards was even. I double checked this by snugging another board next to the nailed boards that overlapped the joint to look for any problems like gaps or bad cuts from the manufacturer. I did have a couple of boards that were slightly off, so I used them in corners and closets. It took me about two hours to get the first course installed (by face nailing), but then it went considerably quicker. I was using 5” planks, so I only had to face nail the first course. The nailer fit after that. Make sure you mark on the wall (above the height of the hardwood) were the joists are so you can hit them with staples. Go easy on the first course you nail with the nailer, as you can knock the face-nailed boards out of alignment if you’re too heavy on the hammer. (Also, if one end of a longer board is snug and the other end is about 1/16th of an inch or less away from the board, you can pull it in with some extra umpphh as you swing the hammer. By longer I mean three feet or so. The shorter ones didn’t have enough flex to close the gap. I had to blind nail the second to last course and face nail the last course. This was the most frustrating part, because even with the board pulled tight, using 8d finish nails they still tended to pull apart when I was setting them with the nailset. (Didn't have this problem with the blind nailed boards, just the face-nailed boards.) Now that I’m done, the gap is not that noticeable , but when your sitting two feet from doing it it looks worse. My wife puttied all the holes and everyone who has looked said it looks like a professional installation, so I’m happy with the results.

Make sure you have plenty of Motrin. All that squatting and nailing put the hurt on my legs and back. However, it was well worth it and my wife is thrilled with the results. Let me know if you have any other questions. Took me about a week, for a total of about 32 hours expended. Saved about 5 grand (here in the DC area), so I’d do it again. The Bellawood product from Lumber Liquidators was very good and I’d buy it again. Hope this helps.

[Guido]

With regard to the fireplce, how much out of square is it? How big of a gap on the right side?

Is the front surface of the fireplace straight?
To be honest we don't know yet. I was just wondering that once we're 1/2 way thorugh if we find out we're 1" off, what are our options. We already know of 3 walls that are out of square but are not worried because the baseboard will cover this - but the brick fireplace won't use a baseboard.

And it's quite possible that the front face isn't straight either.

As far as I can see our only option would be to cut a board lenghtwise at the proper taper. It'll look like crap (especially at such a major focal point), but I don't think we have an option.

Maybe I'm just paranoid and everything will be square, but I'd like to at least get some options before the problem happens so we don't have to stop working to figure out what to do.

[Guido]

Thanks Noel, that's a good tip.

And thanks BigFred2004, your post really helped.

Just to give a better understanding, here is the floorplan. Everything in blue will be changed from carpet to hardwood.
We plan on starting from the center wall and move our way left and right into the two rooms.

Your post was excellent, but I have a few questions (as always).

1) Can you please explain a bit more on aligning the first course. I thought we just make it parallel to the near wall and work out from there. Is the first course the one that goes under the baseboard, or do you start a couple boards away from the wall?

2) Also, I don't have an 8' straight edge - what if I use a chalk line?

3) Did your pneumatic nailer rental include the compressor? What size staples did you use and approx how many did you use?

4) Does the felt paper need to be stapled securely, or are a few dozen staples enough just so it doesn't move around when you walk on it? I plan on using my HD stapler.

5) When you said mark on the wall where the joists are... You think it'll work if I run a chalk line on the felt paper on top of every joist? I figure once you're 10' out from the wall it'll be hard to hit the joist by looking at the mark.

6) Did you do any damage to the walls during installation? My mother inlaw insisted she paint the walls before installing the floor, I told her it was better to wait. Long story short the walls are now painted. What are our chances of damaging the paint job?

7) Is it worth getting one of those thick back belts to help for the pain?

[BigFred2004]

Guido,
My walls aren't perfectly square, so I used the straightedge. I did remove the baseboard because it was too low for the flooring to slip under (had carpet under it previously). I spaced the first course about 1/2 inch away for expansion. Had I not removed the baseboard and done the 3/4 inch recommended, the space would not be covered unless I used something other than the standard 11/16 shoe molding. A chalk line works, I was just a little anal and wanted to make sure the boards fit tight. (I bought an 8ft aluminum edge from HD for about $20. I used it for several other projects prior, so it was worth the cost.) Then to double check the accuracy, I slid a board from the next course against the course I was nailing, making sure the piece covered at least two pieces of wood in the course being nailed, and visually made sure it was lined up. This ensured my first course was perfect and the second course fit nice and tight over the entire length. Also, pick the straightest boards you have for the first course, as it's a bitch to try and bend one with a slight warp, especially with face nailing. My first course was against the wall, althought you can start it anywhere you want. You'll just need some slip tongue to allow you to put two boards together, groove side to groove side to work back towards the wall if you start in the middle. (This was a major pain to find. HD and Lowes will special order it. I found some at a local flooring shop that sold to DIYers.) From the looks of your drawing, you'll need some as you transition through the doorway, or you can use a transition strip (t-molding) and just start again like you indicated with the wood facing the other direction leaving a gap of an inch or so between the two different areas.
- The rental was for the nailer and hammer only. I already have a big compressor. I used the standard 2" Bostich flooring staples, and guess I used about 1500-2000 or so.
- I stapled the felt paper about every 6 inches. Might have been a little excessive, but that's what I read somewhere, not sure where.
- Wish I had done the chalk line to mark the joists on the felt...good idea and would make it a lot easier.
- Wall damage...a llittle, but only when using the nailer on the last course or two. Basically some scuff marks. A quick touchup will cover the marks.
- Never used one of those back braces.
- Regarding your fireplace issue, I had the same problem. I left a small gap and covered it with some quarter round that is the same color as the floor. Looks good and isn't noticable. There are other transition strips that you can find that would do the same thing. A reducer strip would allow you some flexability as long as the out-of-square issue isn't too large over the length of the hearth. I bought my transition strips at HD. They're expensive for the pre-finished ones, but they matched my wood pretty closely and were available, didn't require a special order, and way cheaper than the Bellawood strips.
- There are some great sites on the web with good gouge and good videos. The Bellawood site has a basic video, and the DIYnet has a very good description of the process.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[BigFred2004]

One other note. I installed some Pergo about 5 years ago and the video for installation had some good tips on how to mark and cut the boards, particularly when cutting the last pieces that fit against the wall and how to mark them. Obviously the installation process is different, but I used the marking and cutting tips on the hardwood and they worked very well. Also, reading about your fireplace, you can determine how out of square the front is by measuring from the opposite wall to the two front corners and get an idea of how off it might be.

[Guido]

From the looks of your drawing, you'll need some as you transition through the doorway, or you can use a transition strip (t-molding) and just start again like you indicated with the wood facing the other direction leaving a gap of an inch or so between the two different areas.
Another excellent tip Fred! We don't want a transition strip through this doorwar and I totally forgot about the slip tongue! Another thing to add to my list.

Wow, 2000 staples. Now I know what you mean about getting a power stapler!! I wonder if we'll survive with the manual one. Maybe I should rent another one so we can have 2 people stapling at the same time.

Thanks for the tips - I'll print this thread out before starting the work in case I get stuck. It's going to be a busy weekend!

[BigFred2004]

Guido,
One thing I forgot. My one booboo that I'm not sure how to fix...I replaced the floor registers for the heating, but the new ones are a little smaller than the old ones. The problem??? I cut the openings to fit the old ones, not realizing my wife had plans to buy new ones. If you have any floor registers, make sure you have the ones you're going to use in hand when you cut out the openings. As for the nailers, the process for me was I did the nailing and my son would lay out the wood and cut the end pieces. I think if we had two nailers we wold have gotten in each other's way. That four pound maul felt like a 20 pound sledge by the end, though. My hat's off to those that do this kind of heavy work for a living every day.

Fred

[Guido]

Thanks - I'll make sure we finalize the floor register size before cutting.

Just to be clear - every single cut you made was hidden under a baseboard right? So it doesn't matter what blade I use.

Any tips on ripping out the carpet?

[Mr Fixit eh]

Carpet normally presses into a tack strip around the perimeter of the room. Pry/ pull it off the tack strip and roll 'er up -- 10 minute job.

[BigFred2004]

I used a carpet cutter and cut it into about six foot strips. It came up very easily and we rolled it and tied it and took it out to the curb. The carpet removal took about an hour, including pulling all the old tack strips. They're just nailed to the subfloor. Use a pliers to pull up a corner to get started if you need to. I just undid a metal transistion strip between the carpet and the linoleum kitchen flooring. That expopsed a cut edge that pulled up with little effort. As for the cuts on the wood, all of them will be hidden by molding. (Thank god, because my son did some of them and managed to cut a pretty good curve with a circular saw while ripping one board. Pretty impressive, but unintentional.)

[Guido]

OK doens't seem to difficult. I'll just have to be careful because there will be 2 carpet to wood transitions when we're done.

Fred you got me thinking... how do you rip a 5" board with a circular saw? :confused:

[bmwpower]

Check with your garbage company on how big to cut the carpet pieces. My company near me requires no bigger than 4 foot long rolls. My friend put out 6 foot rolls and they wouldn't take them. He had to recut them which at that point was a pain since they were soaking wet. Just a reminder...

[BigFred2004]

Very carefully. Seriously, most of my rip cuts only took about an inch or so off the board, so I had enough of a ledge to safely ride the saw on. Since the cuts were hidden by the molding, I just marked a line and freehand cut it. Set the wood on two saw horses and had the excess hang off the side. Worked pretty good. I will tell you that the hickory really took it's toll on my blade. That's some hard stuff. Plus, the Bellawood finish actually survived some mi****s while face nailing without a dent (unfortunately not all, though!)

[Guido]

OK I was afraid it would be like that. Maybe I'll just use my jigsaw. :)


Good tip on the garbage company!

[Jacksnap]

Maybe I'll just use my jigsaw.
How do you rip a 5" board with a circular saw?
Guido, if your jigsaw can handle it then fine, but you'll likely need a lot a spare blades. You will still have the problem of safely holding the board.
My suggestion is, first you must know someone that has a table saw they lend you. Then buy your own 60 or 80 tooth carbide blade (usually 10") to use. If not, use your circular saw with an fine tooth 60 to 80 tooth carbide blade. Steel blades cannot handle many rip cuts, and on hardwood they will dull very fast, plus they bind easy when getting dull. Measure the exact thickness of the of the flooring to be cut and then set the saw blade cut depth to appox. 1/16 to 1/8 inch deeper. Get a 'sacrificial' piece of rigid plywood about the same length but a couple feet wider. Nail the ply to the top of the horses for stability. Place and clamp the piece to be ripped with the face down to this sacrifical plyboard. I would strike a line, then rip away. This will give you a safe, clean and straight cut. In addition, you can use this set-up with the clamps to make any smaller or curved cuts with the jigsaw.
BTW, I saw in this thread something about a 4 pound hammer. Look at the picture below. It is my finger after hitting it head on, no gloves with a 4 pound steel hammer while trying to snug some flooring in an installation like yours. I did this a few months ago. I thought my finger was going to explode! Safety is First.. as you can see!

[mdshunk]

Holy cow, Jack. That's a pretty dramatic finger injury. Good thing you know a pretty good nurse, huh? :p

[Guido]

Many good tips - especially the plywood.
A learned many tips in this thread that are useful for many projects - not just this one.

A local store is selling this portable table saw. Reg $99, on sale for $39 CAD.
I know it's "junk" and almost a toy, but do you guys think it's worth the money?
I like the fact that it's small (I have very little room in my shed) and that it's portable, because I can't use it in my shed and will need to bring it outside to use anyway - so it needs to be light and portable. Maybe it'll be useful on this project?

Here are some specs:
8¼" direct drive portable bench saw
6A induction motor, 3,500 RPM
Carbide-tipped blade
1 5/8" material thickness capacity
0-45° bevel
Accessories: blade guard, rip fence, push stick
Rips and cross-cuts through a 2 x 6" board

[bmwpower]

The thing to check is if it has a decent blade..probably not. AND if you can use "real" blades in it. Get extras if so.

[Guido]

I bet a decent blade will run more than the whole saw!! :D
But for $40 I don't think I can go wrong for small jobs. Especially since it's portable.

[Ohm1]

Guido-

What program are you using to draw your drawings? (Looks nice!)

[Jacksnap]

Guido, you said it already comes with a carbide blade. Probably has 20 or 40 teeth but this will work. Feed the stock in face/finished surface up. Cut a piece before you buy another blade and see how it looks. Most of your rips will be covered with moulding, so doesn't have to be perfect.
One other note. The saw blade needs to be height and angle adjustable. Make sure the height is sufficient for your future work. Also, whether or not the blade is angle adjustable, make sure you can 'square' it to the table surface. Another words, use a small framing square at both ends of the blade to make sure you have a 90 degree cut both vertically and horizontally with the table.

[Jacksnap]

mdshunk said to Jack; Good thing you know a pretty good nurse, huh?
Check out the below pic. Nurse wifey, had justed been patched up by a doc after receiving an injury caused by a 'nutso' patient that was sent to their hospital in error. (The patient should have gone to mdshunk's wife :D). Wifey thought it would be funny to take a pic together.

[Guido]

Saturday 9AM I arrived at my inlaws. Lucky for me the carpet was already pulled up. We started by cutting the doorjambs, stopping floor squeeks, levelling the subfloor and organizing all our stuff. I told my father inlaw about the saw on sale and right away he sent his son to pick one up. He already borrowed 2 miter saws (wow are those ever handy!). So we were all set.

It took us quite a while to line up the first row. We couldn't decide whether to align it with the wall or the doorway or what. Then I figured it's best to align it with the kitchen tiles because when standing at the entrance you'll easily see any misalignment between the floor and the tiles. So we extended a chalk line from the kitchen to the entrance - about 30 feet. Then we temporarily laid a row along this line and worked our way back to the wall - and lucky for us it took exactly 4 rows to reach the wall perfectly. Once everything was tight and after making sure the 4th row was still on the line, we face nailed the first two rows nearest the wall. Then we reinstalled row 3 and 4 the conventional way. It's now 5PM!!!

Things went smoothly from there. We had to smash up a couple marble thresholds because they just didn't look right and replaced them with wood ones. Instead of the family room we decided it's best to continue into the dining room. This way we wouldn't have any transitions to worry about if we were to do it in two stages.

By the end of Saturday (10PM) we ended up laying about 15 rows. We were beat! And I was on nailing duty!

All Sunday we continued until almost the end of the foyer (where the dining room starts). We think that the dining room will be a piece of cake because it's a simple rectangle, as opposed to the curves and angles in the foyer. It should be smooth sailing from here.

Jacksnap:
The $40 saw worked really well, we only ripped about 4 boards but it did produce a smooth cut. I believe it's 24 teeth or so, definitely not 40. I did see a single spark come from the blade - it's getting dull already? I did go through 4 jigsaw blades already - man that wood is rough on teeth! Anyway, the table saw does have angle adjustment, but not height. The fence is garbage, but good enough for our work. My father inlaw bought it and he likes it a lot, but I don't think I'll be getting one for myself. I don't see me ever wishing I have one, when my circ. saw can do the same thing. But I did fall in love with the Delta miter saw we were using!

Ohm1:
I'm using an obsolete desktop publishing program called Interleaf to make those drawings. It's not the ideal program, but I'm proficient with it so it's quick and easy.

[Mr Fixit eh]

Sounds like a good weekend. Pics please :D