Proper range connection neutral 6 guage to the neutral bus bar?

[flitch]

proper range connection neutral 6 guage to the neutral bus bar?

perhaps I can scan my breaker box diagram to help understand me if I can scan it.

ok my thing is I have a 200 amp service or thats the breaker size for the main breaker in a GE panel. I am going to ask a stupid sounding question. I hope someone can understand it?

House has an old garage wired to a separate box in garage under ground with an old 50 am breaker. Also had two ranges one was on a 40 but am upgrading basement unit to 50 and and also the older wire to the upstairs range, and two dryers on 30 amp breakers, and a lot of 20 amp single poles too. currently not sure about this one particular question. Yes I think it seems like too much but not sure nore have I followed that down yet now that I think about it. Please direct me to where I can figure that out. I suppose its in the load equations somewhere. Does this seem like too much? I dunno.

The box atleast does fit thinner breakers, some older GE didn't.

Ok the question I have is this. Does it matter where the neutral bus connections for the 6 guage range wire go in the sense that some of the grounds for both the garage and the main box go to two large lugs which are just below the main neutral/ground return lug. Two to each it seems. one or both of the ranges may have been going to these too from some former owners bad remodel. May not matter. but confusing me at this point.

The box says that the bar itself which actually has 3 bars in 3 rows stacked sorta on top of eachother under the two other lugs will accept 10 - 4 guage standed cable in it in the large holes. it says this on the boxes paper instructions that are glued to the door. I gather I am answering my own question as I write this, as I said perhaps a strange stupid question but I couldn't find any detailed pictures or diagrams showing this.

Guess I am just sort of wondering for absolute correctness should the ranges neutrals be located in either of those two lugs above the 3 bars or should they be located in the 3 larger holes of the bar. Or does it matter? I am guessing only the grounds for the box and garage should go too those two lugs that could accept larger wire. They add up too 4, 6 guage bare stranded wires I think. Will look at it again ongoing here.

[flitch]

such confusion in one post huh? 5 views and no answers but my own.
Ok to get to the bottom of this forget about the load question.

My real problem is this. I have a 1912 house that is 3 stories with a basement unit. I have removed a lot of the 1912 knob and tube wiring and am working on removing one of the two original house ciruits totally. As time passed a variety of wires mostly 12/2 were installed to various circuits and of course the 6/3 range cords and the 10/3 for the dryers. With smaller double pole breakers.

At the heart of the matter is this. THE box in question is a GE TM2020.
It has space for 40 breakers if thin type. The neutral bar set has 3 bars x 14 holes in each. 4 or 6 holes are larger for say 6 guage wire. One of which is totally inaccessable due to the style of the mount for the breakers below.

I see 42 holes in it total with only 39 at most accessable. Adding up all the neutral and ground wires I come up with a need for twice the 40 breaker positions. Local inspection says to install grounds together in same hole and neutrals by them selves if possible. So even if I installed one neutral per hole not counting the fact that range cables and a box bond sucks up one large hole I would in the end not have many if any holes left for the grounds.

So doubling up has already happened say with about 30 lines now, and I need say maybe 7 more. I'll look for what I can tie in as branches. Part of the problem is I am trying to be separate the main house somewhat from the units needs below. Not that it is necessary? as its not on a separate meter pack. I just thought it would be a cleaner installation.

Perhaps the answer is to ad another box? IF so what would be the suggested installation. I have a super small square d box the former owner left. Perhaps for the original 2 1912 knob and tube circuits that terminated at a fuse box at one time in kitchen. Either that or it was planned for additional wires. Anyhow the main one is full of neutrals and grounds, can you direct me how to add additional box and a desireable type IF that would be the right way to get a few more circuits in?

I can only assume that GE planned it this way for the original style of thicker breaker and the thin type came out later. Thus the box must be really pretty much at capacity now with the existing wires?

But I must say this from working with this. The engineering that goes into the design of it doesn't plan for people working with it in the future. This may be true of all boxes. I would think that in the future someone would come up with some sort of way to either spread the bar area out farther for ease of work or a design that it folds out while working on it. I can hear the screams of you can't have that loose etc. But really I am sure there has to be a better way. Its easy I am sure to fill the box at the beginning in an orderly way but not to deal with later with too many neutrals and grounds needed and wired by half witted owner before me. Similarly cars which though designed by engineers get put together with little concept for repair space later. I must say the international scouts 80 I owned had a desireable feature for reaching the transmission area namely a removable tunnel.

[suemarkp]

I have the same gripe with a lot of panels, especially older ones. Realize though that some circuits don't require a neutral (water heater, air conditioners, some motors). And you can usually double or triple up the bare equipment grounds. Many 240V circuits will have a neutral and ground, but take 2 breaker slots. Therefore, in a 40 space panel, you typically have less than 40 neutrals and 40 grounds. Number 6 through number 10 wires can usually use any hole. The smaller wires may have to use the small holes, and real big wires may have to use the larger holes, which further limits your choices.

But your panel still sounds like it is short of space. You can also add additional grounding bars if you have mounting holes for them. If you do that, it is best to only put bare grounds there and not neutrals.

In reading your original question, I'm not sure which panel you're asking about. In your main service panel, neutral and ground are the same, so you can use any hole on each bus (if you have more than one bus). A subpanel (or what looks like a main but has a breaker or fuse upstream of it) is supposed to have the neutral and ground isolated (but in many older installations, this was not done). If you need more holes in the isolated neutral bar, I think you're going to need to buy a larger panel.

[Wgoodrich]

I think Suemarkup hit what you are needing in his last sentence. You need a new panel. Question is if you need a bigger service, or someone ran a lot of branch circuits not pulling enough load to need a new circuit where they can be combined as one circuit before they hit the breaker.

You are saying your panel says 20/20. This says you are not allowed slim piggy back breakers where two circuits are served in one slot. 20/20 says full size breaker maximum number of branch circuits allowed in that panel style is 20 circuits not 40 circuits. I suspect that is why you are running out of places to put neutral and grounding wires on your bars.

You are not allowed to install 1/2 size [slim line] breakers where full sized brearkers are listed as only ones allowed. I believe you have a 20 circuit panel designed for only full sized breakers.

First thing you should do is perform a demand load calculation to discover the minimum service size required for your home. Look at the top of the page for "DEMAND LOAD CALC" in yellow and green buttons. Perform your own demand load calculation to find minimum service size required for this home. Then you can make an informed decision whether you need a larger service and perform a service upgrade or if you have a panel with only 20 circuits designed and you can just change out the main panel to a 20/40 or a 40/40 circuit 200 amp panel.

This should answer most of your questions on load concerns and why you don't have enough holes for your neutral and grounding wires in that panel.

Be aware that if you install 1/2 sized breakers or breakers of different brands not listed for use with that panel you are inviting a fire in your panel. This fire occurrance is common due to this mistake of using improper breakers not listed for a panel. Where the breakers connect to the spade in the slot of the panel it does not make a good connection. Then heating occurs soon burning a hole and welding through the buss bar directly to ground causing a fire ball and explosion then fire or you have an over heating condition again causing a fire but luckily without an explosion or fire ball blowing out the front of that panel into your face.

I often see the above discribed after the fact and after the fire department left. Some still had a house to repair some had only a foundation. You can't believe how often using the wrong breakers in a panel cause what is discribed above.

Do your demand load calc for your main service including all loads to that house by the "demand load calc" in the green and yellow blocks at the top of this page.

Then if you have a sub panel do a second demand load calc for that sub panel for only the loads and areas being served by that sub panel to size that sub panel and its feeder.

REmember you are not allowed more than one main breaker service panel to one building unless they are grouped concerning residential wiring.

Hope this helps

Wg

[flitch]

Thanks for the information WG and SPMK. Its a GE panel with all GE breakers.
And it accepts the "Slim" GE breakers. At a local plumbing and electrical store they said that they don't allways fit ones that are a bit older. Anyway its a TM 2020. And it has limited ground bars 3 total. I will look at trying the load calculations to. The house is at most 2100 sq feet total an probably less. The local inspector thought it should be plenty particularily with a gas waterheater and heat. I know from reading other parts of forum gas w/h does not = load calculation. He just felt that was a benefit to the issue.

But I think that when I start to run out of space I think hmm this can not be correct and must do some more research and perhaps limit my expansion and clean this thing up as much as possible.

I think part of the problem is its an old house that got quickly remodeled in some areas and some circuits were not even fully used as much as possible. I mean that they put one light or one outlet on it when there could have been more if they put a bit more effort thought into it. Due to plaster and inaccessable areas they did little to make the most of it. Only one new circuit went to the top floor bedrooms. It was fine till 2 guys living here had all their stereo gear and big tvs in each room and a heater each back when it was a rental.

Part of the problem I face is the codes multi branch circuits and dedicated for the kitchen. I have planned one dedicated for the microwave, 2 branch for the countertop. That makes 3 there. I will pull one branch circuit off of the refer that is sorta the same room but thru a pass thru next to the kitchen in entry to unit. This may not be correct due to being in other room? Right now its dedicated to the refer. Then I need a 4th one for the lights and sink luminaire , range hood, and maybe a 750 watt insta hot and other room recepticals in the 2 room unit. I know my brother has run those insta hot off an existing branch circuit in the past ( not right) but worked.

There used to be only one countertop dedicated receptical for the microwave period with no gfci. Honestly the former owner wired this place with no regard to safety in some places. Running off of old knob and tube in some places like installing a light bar with switch and receptical right next to sink and large tub. In fact only one sink in a 5 sink house had a gfci'd circuit receptical near it and that one a large man couldn't fit thru the door as his countertop is like 18" to the door frame even though its set on a 45 degree angle. This man should never have associated himself with remodeling anything. I should really take a picture of that counter top with a tape measure and post it under Things not to do while remodeling a bathroom.

Part of the problem is there is really two parts of the house with the basement unit. This is a common problem in our area (Seattle) with motherlaw units in basements but no separate meter packs. So I am torn a bit in my decision process as I would like to keep the circuits logical and separated even though its still really a house not a multi unit. Well even a house makes sense to have separate floors wired to separate breakers one would think though its not allways that way.

I will try the load calculations but I must really get this done too with the least amount of work, so will also dedicate thought and time to not expanding it. I wish there was a larger box there, I must really consider that too. I will start with counting and listing the existing circuits and look at trying the load calculations.

Thanks once again both of you for your responses.