*guest
December 14th, 2003, 09:06 AM
#540: Service panel in bathroom (garage) Author: Guest, Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 11:36 am
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1st off, I love this site!!! After going over the codes, I noticed it says you cannot put a service panel in a bathroom, but doesnt tell why? I'm a 1st time homeowner and bought the house with everything already "wired" in the garage, and did notice the panel in the garage bathroom (6'x6') Then I read in code that its not supposed to be there. Do I have to move it? I've seen lots of cases of panel in garage bathrooms. That's why I ? it.
The other question deals with the furnace the guy was going to install in the same bathroom. I saw this was a no-no as well. Why? Same reasons?
Thanks for any responce in advance.
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#546: Author: Wgoodrich, Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:53 pm
----
The Code rules are created by committees. It takes a lot of reading and often can not be found an explaination as to why the Code committees created the rules they do. However engineering practice and long time experience in the field as well as years of formal training often helps to provide a fair explaination being read as to the why's. I will give your question a shot at an answer as I understand the intent of those rules.
Bathrooms are associated with steam, and soap. Both these items are caustic to overcurrent devices [breaker or fuses] and will cause these breakers and fuses to deteriate [corrode] as well as corroding of electrical connections within that panel. Not to mention you are mixing a wet body and electricity. Not a good thing either. This would pertain to both electrical panels as you questioned as well as electric furnaces that would draw that moisture into the heating elements that would not last long due to corrosion.
fossil fuel style furnaces use a lot of combustion air requiring that air to be drawn from the room they are in. Bathrooms are not considered large enough to supply that combustion air. Also the same corrosion concern is in that area also. The furnace draws the air. The soap embedded moist air is a perfect corrosion factory being drawn into that furnace for combustion air.
Hope this helps
Wg
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#551: Author: Guest, Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:38 pm
----
Well, best on that, I'll assume the panel is okay where it is. The bathroom has just a toilet and a small corner sink. The panel is at the oppostie corner of either, so unless there is a huge water fight in a small garage bathroom, everything should be fine...Am I correct??? As far as the furnace, it hasnt been install yet. Its just sitting in one of the corners. It appears, as if the previous owner knew about the air being drawn from the room, so there are two hole in the low ceiling. One being for the hot air, and one to draw air from the open area around the trusses. I will look into the furnace part later. Its not a big concern to get heat to the shop yet. Thank you for your responce!
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#567: Author: joed, Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:22 pm
----
The problem with a furnace in the garge is not electrical. It has to do with carbon monoxide from car exhausts being drawn into the house. It also has to do with fumes from gasoline stored in the garage getting to the flame in the furnace.
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#605: Author: Wgoodrich, Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:05 pm
----
You are in violation of hte NEC having a panel in a bathroom. Nec definition in Article 100 is a room that has a lavatory and any other bathroom fixture such as a lavatory and shower or tub or toilet. A combination of that lavatory and any other fixture meets the definition of a bathroom and the panel is not allowed per the NEC rules to be placed in that bathroom.
COPIED SECTON OF NEC 2002;
Article 100 definitions
Bathroom. An area including a basin with one or more of the following: a toilet, a tub, or a shower.
VI. Service Equipment — Disconnecting Means
230.70 General.
Means shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building or other structure from the service-entrance conductors.
(A) Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed in accordance with 230.70(A)(1), (2), and (3).
(2) Bathrooms. Service disconnecting means shall not be installed in bathrooms.
ARTICLE 240 Overcurrent Protection
E) Not Located in Bathrooms. In dwelling units and guest rooms of hotels and motels, overcurrent devices, other than supplementary overcurrent protection, shall not be located in bathrooms as defined in Article 100.
SECTION M1409
VENTED WALL FURNACES
M1409.1 General. Vented wall furnaces shall conform to UL
730 and be installed in accordance with their listing, the
manufacturer’s installation instructions and the requirements
of this code.
M1409.2 Location. The location of vented wall furnaces shall
conform to the following requirements:
1. Vented wall furnaces shall be located so as not to cause a
fire hazard to walls, floors, combustible furnishings or
doors. Vented wall furnaces installed between bath-
rooms and adjoining rooms shall not circulate air from
bathrooms to other parts of the building.
Hope this helps
Wg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#700: Author: guest, Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:17 pm
----
Okay, I can fix the panel being in the bathroom, because the panel shares a wall with my "parts" room. So all I need to do is cut a hole in the other side of the wall, disconnect all the wiring and feerder cables and flip the panel around and patch up the bathroom wall. Will that satisfy things from the code stand point?
Next issue with this panel. Upon looking at my main panel a little closer I noticed that it doesnt feed the garage panel. Come to find out, it fed directly from the meter. Meaning there are two panels being fed from the meter box. Is this a problem? The only one I can think of is that I have to pull the meter socket to service the panel. No big deal there, but I intend to have a exterior disconnect installed when I do so I dont have to shut power off to the house every time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#706: Author: Wgoodrich, Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:17 pm
----
The Code requires that all main service panels or disconnecting forms must be grouped together. It is a Code violation to have two main service rated disconnects or panels not grouped together.
One exception would be a main service disconnect mounted outside but serving a detached structure not serving that building it is mounted on.
Removing or installing a meter in a meter socket while under load IS A VERY BIG DEAL. A meter plugged in under load under the right conditions can an will blow up like a well planned explosive. Commonly right into your face. Second concern is the power company frowns strongly with home owners messing with their cash box [aka meter]. Theft charges could be charged against you.
Be careful
Wg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#738: Author: guest, Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:31 pm
----
Thanks for the input. After much thought, I've decided to contact my realtor and discuss with them the violations. I really dont want anyone in trouble, but I dont want to be the one paying the bill if I get fined for what some other idiot did to this house. What really ticks me is the inspector that looked at the house turned out to be a friend of the previous owner. Of course I didnt discover this til after we had moved in!
So If I put a exterior 100amp disconnect next to the meter attached to the house I wont have any problems?
Thanks again for the info!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#739: Author: Wgoodrich, Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:16 pm
----
All the main disconnects serving a house must be grouped. If you have two panels not grouped then you either must install two outside weather proof main service fused disconnects outside making the two inside panels sub panels isolating the neutral bars, or you must install a main service rated disconnect inside beside one of the two inside panels making one of the existing inside panels a sub panel of the main service disconnect still using the existing panel next to the new main service disconnect being used as a main panel. Either way will group the main service disconnects.
You did not say what size panels these existing panels are. If both are 100 amp rated panels as existing panels then you could install a 4 circuit or 6 circuit service rated weatherproof panel outside and install 100 amp breakers in that panel as main overcurrent devices and disconnect form in that panel having two more circuits for a third panel or a detached structure. This too would group the mains in one location.
Good Luck
Wg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#818: Author: joed, Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:29 pm
----
You might want to talk to the lawyer that handled your side of the deal. The realtor is not working for you.
----
1st off, I love this site!!! After going over the codes, I noticed it says you cannot put a service panel in a bathroom, but doesnt tell why? I'm a 1st time homeowner and bought the house with everything already "wired" in the garage, and did notice the panel in the garage bathroom (6'x6') Then I read in code that its not supposed to be there. Do I have to move it? I've seen lots of cases of panel in garage bathrooms. That's why I ? it.
The other question deals with the furnace the guy was going to install in the same bathroom. I saw this was a no-no as well. Why? Same reasons?
Thanks for any responce in advance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#546: Author: Wgoodrich, Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:53 pm
----
The Code rules are created by committees. It takes a lot of reading and often can not be found an explaination as to why the Code committees created the rules they do. However engineering practice and long time experience in the field as well as years of formal training often helps to provide a fair explaination being read as to the why's. I will give your question a shot at an answer as I understand the intent of those rules.
Bathrooms are associated with steam, and soap. Both these items are caustic to overcurrent devices [breaker or fuses] and will cause these breakers and fuses to deteriate [corrode] as well as corroding of electrical connections within that panel. Not to mention you are mixing a wet body and electricity. Not a good thing either. This would pertain to both electrical panels as you questioned as well as electric furnaces that would draw that moisture into the heating elements that would not last long due to corrosion.
fossil fuel style furnaces use a lot of combustion air requiring that air to be drawn from the room they are in. Bathrooms are not considered large enough to supply that combustion air. Also the same corrosion concern is in that area also. The furnace draws the air. The soap embedded moist air is a perfect corrosion factory being drawn into that furnace for combustion air.
Hope this helps
Wg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#551: Author: Guest, Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:38 pm
----
Well, best on that, I'll assume the panel is okay where it is. The bathroom has just a toilet and a small corner sink. The panel is at the oppostie corner of either, so unless there is a huge water fight in a small garage bathroom, everything should be fine...Am I correct??? As far as the furnace, it hasnt been install yet. Its just sitting in one of the corners. It appears, as if the previous owner knew about the air being drawn from the room, so there are two hole in the low ceiling. One being for the hot air, and one to draw air from the open area around the trusses. I will look into the furnace part later. Its not a big concern to get heat to the shop yet. Thank you for your responce!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#567: Author: joed, Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:22 pm
----
The problem with a furnace in the garge is not electrical. It has to do with carbon monoxide from car exhausts being drawn into the house. It also has to do with fumes from gasoline stored in the garage getting to the flame in the furnace.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#605: Author: Wgoodrich, Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:05 pm
----
You are in violation of hte NEC having a panel in a bathroom. Nec definition in Article 100 is a room that has a lavatory and any other bathroom fixture such as a lavatory and shower or tub or toilet. A combination of that lavatory and any other fixture meets the definition of a bathroom and the panel is not allowed per the NEC rules to be placed in that bathroom.
COPIED SECTON OF NEC 2002;
Article 100 definitions
Bathroom. An area including a basin with one or more of the following: a toilet, a tub, or a shower.
VI. Service Equipment — Disconnecting Means
230.70 General.
Means shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building or other structure from the service-entrance conductors.
(A) Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed in accordance with 230.70(A)(1), (2), and (3).
(2) Bathrooms. Service disconnecting means shall not be installed in bathrooms.
ARTICLE 240 Overcurrent Protection
E) Not Located in Bathrooms. In dwelling units and guest rooms of hotels and motels, overcurrent devices, other than supplementary overcurrent protection, shall not be located in bathrooms as defined in Article 100.
SECTION M1409
VENTED WALL FURNACES
M1409.1 General. Vented wall furnaces shall conform to UL
730 and be installed in accordance with their listing, the
manufacturer’s installation instructions and the requirements
of this code.
M1409.2 Location. The location of vented wall furnaces shall
conform to the following requirements:
1. Vented wall furnaces shall be located so as not to cause a
fire hazard to walls, floors, combustible furnishings or
doors. Vented wall furnaces installed between bath-
rooms and adjoining rooms shall not circulate air from
bathrooms to other parts of the building.
Hope this helps
Wg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#700: Author: guest, Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:17 pm
----
Okay, I can fix the panel being in the bathroom, because the panel shares a wall with my "parts" room. So all I need to do is cut a hole in the other side of the wall, disconnect all the wiring and feerder cables and flip the panel around and patch up the bathroom wall. Will that satisfy things from the code stand point?
Next issue with this panel. Upon looking at my main panel a little closer I noticed that it doesnt feed the garage panel. Come to find out, it fed directly from the meter. Meaning there are two panels being fed from the meter box. Is this a problem? The only one I can think of is that I have to pull the meter socket to service the panel. No big deal there, but I intend to have a exterior disconnect installed when I do so I dont have to shut power off to the house every time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#706: Author: Wgoodrich, Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:17 pm
----
The Code requires that all main service panels or disconnecting forms must be grouped together. It is a Code violation to have two main service rated disconnects or panels not grouped together.
One exception would be a main service disconnect mounted outside but serving a detached structure not serving that building it is mounted on.
Removing or installing a meter in a meter socket while under load IS A VERY BIG DEAL. A meter plugged in under load under the right conditions can an will blow up like a well planned explosive. Commonly right into your face. Second concern is the power company frowns strongly with home owners messing with their cash box [aka meter]. Theft charges could be charged against you.
Be careful
Wg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#738: Author: guest, Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:31 pm
----
Thanks for the input. After much thought, I've decided to contact my realtor and discuss with them the violations. I really dont want anyone in trouble, but I dont want to be the one paying the bill if I get fined for what some other idiot did to this house. What really ticks me is the inspector that looked at the house turned out to be a friend of the previous owner. Of course I didnt discover this til after we had moved in!
So If I put a exterior 100amp disconnect next to the meter attached to the house I wont have any problems?
Thanks again for the info!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#739: Author: Wgoodrich, Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:16 pm
----
All the main disconnects serving a house must be grouped. If you have two panels not grouped then you either must install two outside weather proof main service fused disconnects outside making the two inside panels sub panels isolating the neutral bars, or you must install a main service rated disconnect inside beside one of the two inside panels making one of the existing inside panels a sub panel of the main service disconnect still using the existing panel next to the new main service disconnect being used as a main panel. Either way will group the main service disconnects.
You did not say what size panels these existing panels are. If both are 100 amp rated panels as existing panels then you could install a 4 circuit or 6 circuit service rated weatherproof panel outside and install 100 amp breakers in that panel as main overcurrent devices and disconnect form in that panel having two more circuits for a third panel or a detached structure. This too would group the mains in one location.
Good Luck
Wg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#818: Author: joed, Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:29 pm
----
You might want to talk to the lawyer that handled your side of the deal. The realtor is not working for you.
