Will French Drain Bring More Water

[BESTBOYZ]

Hi There

I Have SOME Confusion....LOGICALLY FRENCH DRAIN WILL BRING MORE WATER IN AND WE WILL PUMP THEM OUT ??? WHY BUT THATS THE ONLY SOLUTION ALL 8 COMPANIES HAVE SUGGESTED WHO TRIED TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM.... I WANTED TO KEEP FLOOR INTACT AND DO THE WATERPROOFING ?? ANY LUCK... HERE IS DETAIL///

I Live In Home, NJ, 18 Years Old... Both Side Gutters Are Connected To 3 Inch Pipe And Its Taking Water To Street (front Side Of Home Where There Is Road ) And Also My Sumpum Water Out Let Is Connected To The Same Pipe.. I Have Both Side Of Home, Such Out Let Leading To Street).. During Last Rain, In My Basement I See Some Water,, Actually Dampness And Moisture In Carpet... Basement Is Finished....

As Soon As I See Water, I Called 8 Water Proofing Company For Inspection.. All Sales Person Were Very Pushy And Even Without Looking At The Problem All Said Same Solution... French Drain Will 100% Solve Problem... Very High Quote Then If I Make Immediate Decision, They Will Give 40% Discount And That Sort Of Story.. I Could Not Believe That For Such A Problem Where We See Little Of Water In One Corner Of Home, Why Would We Have To Break The Floor ?? What About The Strength Of Floor ?? Why Do We Need To Drill Hole In Wall And Invite More Water ?? INSTEAD OF KEEPING WATER OUT ??

I Started Reading On Internet... I Fix The Grade Around Home And All Gutter Spout And Try To Fix From Out Side....

Then I Came Across Sani Tred And Other Urathan Base Coating From Inside And Read About It....

Now I Am In Big Confusion About What To Do ? If They Will Break The Floor And Still Problem Is Not Solve Then ? Or Can I Use Sanitred Or Other Urathane Base Coating And Will They Withstand Any Water Pressure Or Its Temporary Fix ??

Backside Of My Home Is Concret Patio So My Question Is What Is The Right Solution ? How Effective Is French Drain From Inside ?? And What Is Better Way To Go ??? I GUESS DOING FRENCH DRAIN WILL INVITE MORE WATER AND THEN I WILL PUMP THEM OUT ?? LOOKS ILLOGICAL ??

I Also Can Not Drain Water Outside On Street As Per My City, So I Am Also Thinking To Building Dry Well ??

So Is There Anyway Which Can Solve Water Problem And Drainage ? And How Effective Is Urathane Coating And Does They Work ?? AND HOW GOOD IT IS FOR HYDROSTATIC PRESSURE ???

I DONT WANT TO LEARN BY MAKING MISTAKE ?? PLEASE SHARE UR EXPERIENCES....

I Have No Idea If My House Has A Perimeter Drainage Outside Home Or Not ???

Any Idea ???

Thanks Guys

[Wgoodrich]

I will try to answer you questions as they came to us.

The following is a copied section of the IRC which is the accepted building code for the Nation with local amendments created most often when they are adopted by each state. You should see what the Code says is the proper method of artificially lowering the subsurface water table attacking your basement.

SECTION R405
FOUNDATION DRAINAGE
R405.1 Concrete or masonry foundations. Drains shall be
provided around all concrete or masonry foundations that
retain earth and enclose habitable or usable spaces located
below grade. Drainage tiles, gravel or crushed stone drains,
perforated pipe or other approved systems or materials shall be
installed at or belowthe area to be protected and shall discharge
by gravity or mechanical means into an approved drainage system. Gravel or crushed stone drains shall extend at least 1 foot
(305 mm) beyond the outside edge of the footing and 6 inches
(152 mm) above the top of the footing and be covered with an
approved filter membrane material. The top of open joints of
drain tiles shall be protected with strips of building paper, and
the drainage tiles or perforated pipe shall be placed on a minimum
of 2 inches (51 mm) of washed gravel or crushed rock at
least one sieve size larger than the tile joint opening or perforation
and covered with not less than 6 inches (152 mm) of the
same material.


Now if you notice the rule above states the perimeter drain is to be outside not inside. Then it says by gravity or by pump. Pumping from a sump pit inside your basement requires the outside 4" perimeter drain to be routed into your basement connecting both ends of that 4" pipe through that sump pit wall into the inside of your basement. Consider that one 4" pipe gravity drain has a capacity of carrying into your basement 300 gallons per minute. Now double that due to the two hoses passing through your sump pit walls from the perimeter drain. This gives you an influx capacity to flood your basement during a heavy long term rain period 600 gallons of water entering your basement a minute. Now when talking to your contractors ask them what gallon perminute pump they plan to use. Then ask them at what rating of head that pump gallon per minute is rated at. A basement typically will create 7' of head. Their answers will tell you the level of knowledge they have in their high pressure sales pitch. I bet they will say between 35 gallon per minute and 50 gallon per minute. They will probably also ask what is "head". This will tell you the skill level of the people you are dealing with.

Now if you put the sump it inside from an outside perimeter drain system I would install no less than 120 gallon per minute pump rating with 7' of head. This will cover those flooding conditions from heavy 100 year flooding conditions giving your drain system its best chance to prevent your basement from flooding in those flooding rain conditions. I suggest you install a 24" black plastic pipe cistern on the outside of your basement to drain your perimeter drain into like a water fall then installing your pump same size as suggested in that cistern. This gives your basement walls their best chance to keep the water out of your basement while the pump artificially lowers your recently rain filled subsurface water table.

You can go out as far as 10' away from the basment to install a new perimeter drain system. It must be dug down to a level 6" below the elevation of your basement floor and dug all the way around your house draining into the cistern suggested installed in that trench you aleady dug to install the outside perimeter drain. The cistern should be set 2' deeper than the level of the perimeter drain so the drain can empty into that 2' drop and be pumped to surface level then drained into your city storm drain per rules set in your area.

Installing a drain inside your basement under the floor will not drain the subsurface water table until the water in the earth reaches about 1/2 the way up your wall to push the water under your basement footer which should be about a foot below the bottom of your basement floor acting as a barrier from water entering under your basement floor from the outside. While the water has raised enough to push the water under the footer to the area where you have your underfloor drain installed this water is also leaking into your basement due to the pressure of that water that has raised up the outside of your basement walls.

Water proofing the inside of your basement walls is no different than painting concrete. It will peal and fail in a short period of time if it worked at all in my opinion. Talk to someone who has painted a concrete porch. They will tell you the paint starts pealing before a year is up. I have experienced this many times where water proofing failed. Now if you were water proofing when you built the house and installed the tar substance thick as the Code tells us to do in waterproofing a basement it will hold for years to come. Problem is that stuff is black and will get on anything it touches including you if your tried to install it on the inside of the basement walls. Tar on the inside of the walls is not logical due to this.

Keep in mind we are not looking for a profit or pusing sales. What we say is free in hopes to help only.

Hope this answers your questions.

Wg

[BESTBOYZ]

thanks for your reply Wg..

another concern is i dont have access to city strom water system as its 3 house down the street and there is road and concrete sidewalk which we need to cut to reach there...

i ask the company who have me french drain estimate for perimeter drainage with the specificatio u suggested... they are asking for 17 k.. is that a good price ? i have 1/4 acre home and home build from 40 feet to 50 feet...

another option the company was suggesting was to make drywell... but i guess is it possible to divert such a big amount of water to drywell and will drywell will be able to hold and let sip to ground so much of water ???

u suggested that i should dig perimeter drainage up 10 feet away from home, allaround and discharge it to some collection system from where it can be pumped to city storm water system ?? right,,, dont take that water to inside the home where there is sumpump ...and you said cystein does that mean some water collection/ storage system where all water from drain will collect and then we can pump out to city storm system... sorry for making sure becasuse i am not sure with lots of terminology for drainage..

thanks again,,

[Wgoodrich]

Yes you install a 24" black plastic pipe normally used for driveways straight up and down into the trench so it is 2' deeper than the 4" perimeter drain system. 17 thousand sound like you are building a perimeter drain system and the new basement all for one price. Digging a trench around the house if you rent an excavator should be able to be dug in about 14 hours as an estimate. Then the cost of hauling the stone for the stone bed and the cost of a filter cloth normally used for septic finger stone beds then back fill in about a day labor.

You should be able to rent a small excavator from a tool rental for about 800 dollars for a week of renting it. Labor at say 25 an hour for say 3 days work should be about 600 to a thousand dollars for one man to run the excavator. the pipe and material should be less than 200 dollars and the hauling of the 5L rock should not exceed a hundred dollars a load from a triaxle. About 3 triaxle loads is a guess of how much rock. This would total about 3 or 400 dollars. Add all this together add a thousand dollars for cushion to be safe and it gives us an estimate of about 3400 dollars. Double that just to cover anything we might have missed to $6,800 and you still are not near the estimate you quoted. Sounds like you need better local advice.

How can the city forbid you to drain a basement on top of the grass without giving you a right of way and storm sewer tap ? This does not sound right.

Wg

[BESTBOYZ]

i am sorry .. but the 24 inch pipe should go atleast 8 feet down right... my basement is 7 feet... and in backyard i have concrete patio so i can go around it as it is 10 feet from home ??
thanks

[Wgoodrich]

My comment;

Yes you install a 24" black plastic pipe normally used for driveways straight up and down into the trench so it is 2' deeper than the 4" perimeter drain system.

Reply. The top of the 4" perimeter drain must be placed 6" below the elevation of the basement floor. I expect the basement floor would be about 7' deep. This would put your 4" perimeter drain minimum depth 7' 6" if your basement floor is truly 7' below the grass outside. Then the 2' diameter plastic pipe should be installed 2' below that making the bottom of that vertical pipe about 9' 6" deep at the bottom. Then this same vertical pipe would run up to about a foot above the grass finished grade of your grass. The sump pump would be lowered to the bottom of that vertical pipe sitting on a bit of stone as a bottom. Then both ends of the perimeter drain pipe would pass through the side of that vertical pipe keeping that perimeter drain level poking through the vertical pipe about 2' above the bottom of that vertical pipe as a cistern. The water from the earth will then seep into that 4" perimeter drain pipe and run into that vertical pipe like a water fall then pumped to the surface at grass level dumping into a shallow 4" line going to your storm drain as required by law in your town.

Wg

[BESTBOYZ]

thanks for your prompt reply and patience for question from me....actually i dont have any knowledge i am using your answer to speak to contractor who comes for estimates of job,,, so they know what i am taking...

some place you talk about 24 inch pipe and some place 4 inch pipe.. are we talking about 2 different systems ? and can i put sumpump straight inside pipe to pump water ??

thanks

[BESTBOYZ]

i am sorry....

i got it... we place our new system 2 feet deeper than my existing 4" perimeter drain system which is already in place .. right,,,,

can we put both 4" perimeter drain system and new system we are installing together and drain away water ???

thanks

[Wgoodrich]

Sorry I did not pick up you already had a perimeter drain system existing outside. I just thought you had a gutter drain and was planning on installing an inside underfloor drain.

If you have an existing outside perimeter drain existing I would hire a contractor to run what is called a camera mole through your existing perimeter drain system to see what condition it is in. This if properly done would be digging a hole on two opposite corners of your house to run the camera through your existing drain system. If it shows clear then I would have that contractor run the camera through the drain outlet that both your gutter drain and perimeter drain is connected to going to the storm sewer system. The camera will show and record the inside of your pipes on a TV screen telling you exactly the conditions of the inside of your perimeter drain and your outlet drain pipe. This will allow you to make an informed decision what needs to be done. With this added info that you already have an existing perimeter drain system installed outside your basement I will predict you either had an overloaded city storm drain or a plugged drain outlet connected to both the gutter drain and the perimeter drain system plugged with rotted leaves or roots. Sounds like you will not need to install any new perimeter drain systems or pits depending on what you see with the camera detail running through your existing drains. This camera mole is a minor expense to give you an answer as to what you truly need to do.

Sorry for the misunderstanding of your original post. I did not pick up you have an existing outside perimeter drain system installed below your basement floor already.

Below is a web site showing the equipment used for drain inspection by camera. There is a rental available but do not know any further info. Just to show the equipment used.

http://www.doheny-supplies.com/year-end.htm

Wg

[BESTBOYZ]

hi wg

sorry for confusion....i have no idea if we have any perimeter drain,,, we only have 3 inch pipe all around home about 2 feet down in ground which we recently replaced which has out gutters connected also taking water outside to road...

what i was confused with was 24 inch and 4 inch pipe but i did some search on internet and i understood that 4 inch will go all around home and 24 inch pipe will bring all collected water at 8 feet down to the surface with the help of sumpump... (it will act like collector of all water ... 4 inch pipe will end in to both side of this 24 inch pipe and i will pupm water to surface ) this is what i understood by now... is that right ??

thanks and sorry for confusion...

[BESTBOYZ]

hi wg

is there anyway to learn if my home has any of that drainage already installed when it was built ??? (below basement level) ??

thanks

[Wgoodrich]

If you have a sump pit inside your basement look on the sides of that sump pit for one or two 4" holes through the sides of that pit. This should tell you that you have some kind of drain system.

Seeing is knowing. I suggested a camera mole be brought in to go up the existing perimter drain line. To run a camera up the drain line to see conditions existing in an existing perimeter drain system you need to dig down the the bottom of your basement at two opposite corners of your home. Then you can see what you have there as a perimeter drain and what type of drainage bed you have. While the holes are open and if a drain line is found then bring in the camera mole to take video of the inside conditions of that existing drain to tell you what you need to correct your problem.

Wg