"dry basement system" for city living (attached townhouse)

[madman]

WGoodrich,

I have a problem with my basement. During heavy rains I receive about a 1/8th of an inch of standing water in the corners. It appears to enter where the floor meets the walls. I have had three plumbing companies come to look at the house and they have all recommended digging a trench around the interior basement, and installing drainage pipe which runs back to the sump system then cover over in concrete. The old clay system (installed in 1960), they say, has shifted and cracked and this will solve my problem.

My basement is unfinished and before I finish it I want to be 99% sure that I won't be bothered by water again. You sounded skeptical of this type of solution in your earlier posts but I am not sure I have the option of digging from the outside since I live in a town house in the city of Chicago and have one shared wall. Space around the unit is tight and it would be very very difficult to get a back hoe in to do the digging.

What are your thoughts? Could this interior work be the solution in my case?

Thanks
Madison

[Wgoodrich]

If you dug up your basement floor and installed a drain under the floor then you just opened the outside subsurface flood of water to flow rapidly into your sump pit inviting your basement to flood. This would be in my opinion the worst thing you can do. What you are saying is that you have during heavy rains water seeping between where the floor meets the basement walls through that very small crack. Picture the drain you are advised to do to drain into the sump pit. That 4" drain hose has a capacity of 300 gallons per minute entering your basement. That would take quite a huge costly sump pump that you will not want to buy due to cost. Picture what you approximatley said. I have water seeping along the floor where it meets the basement walls through that small crack or imperfect seal of the wall and floor. This tells me your existing perimeter drain if it exists in inadequate to carry away the subsurface water before it puts pressure enoungh to seep water into the basement. It tells me subsurface water is climbing up the outside of your basement wall and then slowly lowering after the rains back to below the basement floor level. I am convinced that this is essentially what is happening causing that seepage of water. Now how to address this problem is the unknown at that time. We all love those answers with many questions but you force me to ask some questions of your knowledge of the conditions before I suggest a cure.

Are you sure there is a perimeter drain system around your basement ?
Are there any roof gutters draining directly into any existing perimeter drain system that could be putting rotten leave into that subsurface perimeter drain plugging it up ?
Are you sure it has a clay tile perimeter drain ? What year is your townhouse built, that would tell me a lot on the design of this system ?
Do you know of a surface outlet for any existing subsurface basement drain system ?
How high is your town house above the street level and above any storm drain system owned by the city ?

Tell us these answers then we should be better informed to help with suggestions.

Wg

[madman]

Wgoodrich,

Thanks for the reply. The townhouse was built in roughly 1960 (give or take 2 years) I basically have no idea what is around the outside perimeter (underground) in terms of drainage.

In the basement there is an old sump system which has clay drain tiles / pipes that are cracked and are constantly dripping water into the basin (even on a dry day). I can see these old tiles in the basin and they are a terracotta color. The sump pump pumps directly into the sewage line. (As I understand it, Chicago sewage and storm water is a shared system)

There are gutters and 3 downspouts that are directed into the ground. These spouts should drain directly into the piping for the city storm drainage. (The same pipe that the sump pump uses).

Since I am in the city, I doubt there is a surface outlet. All water should be directed into the sewage system.

The first floor of the townhouse sits roughly 1 foot about the ground. The basement is about 8 ft deep. I do not know the elevation of the storm drain system but the main sewage pipe is about 5 ft above our basement floor.

Hope this helps. Please let me know if you need any more information.

Thanks
Madison

[Wgoodrich]

From what you have said so far you have not commented that the sump pit has overflowed into the basement but rather the water is entering where the floor meets the basement wall. This tells me your perimeter drain system is partially plugged. Clay tiles should not deteriate in 40 years unless disturbed during construction. I am betting you have rotten leaves that has built up entering the subsurface perimeter basement drain from the gutters above. If it were my basement I would hire a contractor that has what I call a camera mole. This camera will crawl through your subsurface drain system entering from within your sump pit. The contractor should have a TV by the sump entry that will show you in real time the conditions within those clay pipes. Then you will know what needs to be done. If it is like many I have seen in the past with gutters connected to basement perimeter drain systems you will find your clay tiles filled quite a bit with rotted debris. If this is what you find they have equipment that you can hire to run down those clay tiles blasting high pressure water stirring up the debris then a suction hose that will suck them out clean again. This is commonly done for city sewer systems to clear them from clogs. This will correct your existing perimeter drain system if I am correct in my prediction saving you digging anything up and save new installation costs.

It may be that this condition has been present since the building was built if the perimeter drain system was not installed correctly. Example is not having a 12" x 12" stone bed and filter cloth covering the perimeter drain line. Another example is the location of the perimeter drain may be too high. There are several different possible causes. However if it used to work fine I predict the above partially filled clay tiles will be what you find.

Let us know what you find

Wg

[madman]

You are correct that the sump pit has not overflowed. However, the gutters should be connecting in with the storm drain at least 5-6ft above the perimeter drainage system. I am no expert, but I wouldn't think water / debris from the gutters would reach the clay tiles unless the sewer was to backup.

The 3rd Sewer and Plumbing guy that I have had "eyeball" the situation came by about 4 days ago. He told me the same thing that the first two told me, that the clay tiles were made in 1 ft sections and that after 40-50 years they would shift to such an extent that it would prevent the flow of water. He said the only solution was to dig up and replace with a PVC system. (In your opinion, is there any truth to this? )

I know their company offers (taken from their website):
- Video Inspection of Sewer
- Hydro Jetting
- Electric Rodding
- Private Drain Opening
- Dye Testing
- Etc.

If what you say is correct, I am bothered by the fact he didn't suggested this service and even when I asked about running a camera through and cleaning out the system he said it wouldn't go very far cause the tiles would have shifted too much.

If you feel he is being dishonest, I will find another company. My fear is that they will all tell me the same thing that the first few have.

Thanks again.

[Wgoodrich]

Clay tiles have been in operation across farm fields for 70 and 80 years without closing off. They are still operative. Now if a clay tile caved in for an example then as water flowed through that clay drain line that broken clay tile will allow dirt to enter into the drain. The flow of water will carry that dirt away. Over time there would be a sink hole over that broken clay tile. This is how farmers find and repair a single broken clay tile that runs for miles across open fields. If they have a farm field not draining as it used to they look for a sink hole. Dig up that broken clay tile and replace it with a plastic patch of split plastic hose laid over the missing tile section or just install a new clay tile. It is done every day. Sink holes from broken clay tiles appear across the nation no matter what they serve every day.

I just advised and helped repair a blocked clay storm drain across a parking lot of a resteraunt. The owner was told the entire drainage system must be replaced for the same reasons you were told, old clay tile no good anymore, can't be repaired. I found a sink area in an asphalt parking lot. We dug up the clay tile and patched the broken tile and that storm drain is draining as good as ever now. Much cheaper repair cost for owner but major loss of sales to those trying to get a new storm drian installation contracted.

Yes the clay tile will shift some but not enough it can not be video and cleaned. Example the nearby town of Waldron had flooding so bad each rain they had to sand bag the grocery store on the main street. This clay tile was installed so far back there were no records of the installation. After arguing with the politicians long enough a deal was struck with the Shelbyville Waste water treatment plant to take there video and cleaning equipment to that town. They ran the video down that old clay tile and it proved that over time in the winter the sand trucks sanding the Waldron streets washed all that sand into that clay tile drain system plugging it. They blasted the tile drain and sucked out the sand and resolved the flooding problem for that town without digging up anything.

It is your choice what you do. I am here just to provide some of my experience and what skills I have to hopefully help you solve the problem using informed knowledge on the problem for you to make your decision.

Let us know what you come up with.

Good Luck

Wg

[suemarkp]

My house is similar except it uses flyash concrete pipes laid side by side. These pipes are just butted against one another -- there is no belled female end to interlock these pipes. The pipes along the house foundation are a bit wavy, but I was able to shove a garden hose most of the way up it and blow out some leaves and other debris. I also shoved about 20' of 3" poly pipe inside this 4" pipe. I couldn't go any farther because one piece had shifted too much to allow a 3" pipe to fit. But there is still plenty of room for water to flow.

This same piping was also buried in the dirt to carry the foundation water away from the house and out to the driveway. This pipe was totally clogged with dirt because the burlap "fines filter" has disintegrated. Then, dirt got between each piece of pipe and over time completely filled each pipe. I had to dig this whole thing up and replace it. The new pipe was put in a drain rock filled trench with a synthetic fines filter. And I used poly pipe with fittings between each piece.

The foundation drain didn't clog with dirt because it was in a decent gravel bed and must have used a better fines filtering method. The section buried 18" in the dirt to carry it away was hopeless. Fortunately, that was much easier to dig up.

[madman]

I am trying to decide if I should use one of the companies who have previously recommended replacing the drain tiles to check the condition of my current drainage system (i.e. run a camera through the clay pipes.) or if I should try to find a new company. (My goal here is to get an honest answer)

Does anyone have any experience using a big national chain such as Roto Rooter? Would they be a good service to use to check the condition of the system and clean it? Or would I be better served by using a local sewage / plumbing company?

Anyone have recommendations for the Chicago Land area?

Also, what is the going rate to put a camera through a clay tile system? I have roughly a 120 ft perimeter.

Thanks

[Wgoodrich]

It is my opinion your choices gave you bad advice to install a perimeter drain inside the basement breaking out your basement floor then draining to the sump pit. I would guess cost of running a camera down that drain line would be about 2 to 3 hundred. Then you probably can have the same company with the camera to flush out the drain lines if needed. Bigger companies like miller pipeline can do this type job but would probably charge a thousand or two to clean out your drains and video. How much did your original contractors quote to install the drains under your basement floor ? If you are present when the video crawler goes through your pipes outside your basement you will be able to see for yourself what condition the drain lines are in and what needs to be done. Then you will be making an informed decision not needing advice from others, you will know yourself what needs to be done. Just curious

Wg

[madman]

The first company quoted about $5k for the install. The second company quoted around $4k.

This would include digging up the pipe, rebuilding my sump basin (old and cracked) and replacing the the pump (probably not needed, but they said they would need to do it to give me a valid warranty)

I am surprised that cleaning the clay tiles would be so expensive. I would think this job could be done for <$500. No?

[Wgoodrich]

I mentioned Miller Pipeline because I talked to a friend of mine that is a reginal supervisor for them. I talked to him just to confirm today's prices and availability to your location. He said they could probably video and clean out 1000' of subsurface drainage for you in Chicago for about 2 grand. Doing this would allow you to see the problem, solve the problem and still have an undisturbed yard and untouched basement floor for what sounds like 3 grand less money than you have been quoted so far and in my opinion them doing it wrong. Doing it right does not really demand for it to cost more money. Knowledge is your best tools to use. The big question is what was originally installed. This can be visually confirmed before you get too far into the project. If I were you I would do some research in the businesses available for cleaning out subsurface drains as we discussed before. I suspect Brian, my friend, would dig down to the outside pipes at two corners of your townhouse and expose the tiles and see the condition of the stone bed and filter cloth leaving you two disturbed areas in the corners of your buildig that they will fill back, level and reseed. I suspect if your other tenants of this townhouse were asked they are experiencing the same problems. If you all get together everyone could be solved all at once for less investment per tenant of the townhouses. Miller is not a small one horse company but rather a national company that installs and repairs underground systems all around the nation to my understanding. I am not trying to sell them. I just know a field supervisor that has worked for them for many years and talked with him on what I was advising you. He made the offer if you wanted to contact him. There are many companies out there that are well known, well skilled and well equipped to do what you really need.

The last project I was a consultant on that had major flooding problems on a new home was charged $200 to video and discover the problem. They found a pipe was mashed on the outlet of the system about 30 feet in with the camera. The dug up that spot and replaced the mashed pipe and they have had no problems since. Cost depends on what all will need to be done.

Hope this helps

Wg

[madman]

WG,

Would you mind sending me your friend's contact information at Miller Pipeline? You can either post it to this thread or send it via PM. I will give him and call and see if I can get something setup.

Thanks again,

Madison

[Wgoodrich]

Madison, It will probably be tommorrow night before I can see him but I will get his phone number so you two can get together. He is very knowledgable in this trade and may be able to both offer a visit and price quote or even give you information I have not thought of to tell you. I will get back by private mail his direct contact phone number for you.

Wg

[madman]

WG,

One more question for you. I have a contractor coming next week to do some dirt work in the side yard and to install a patio. He has offered to install drainage tiles around the exterior perimeter of the townhouse roughly 4 feet underground. They will be laid in a bed of rock and the water which is caught by these drainage pipes will be channeled to the parking lot.

I am considering having him do this since my yard is already torn up this summer and it would be easy to install the system.

Do you see this having any benefit for me? Since he is already digging in the yard he offered to do this for $300.

As always, thank you for your time.

[Wgoodrich]

Most basements are 9' deep. The perimeter drain needs to be placed no higher than the basement floor at that depth. Any drainage system 3' deep could serve your gutter downspots but would do nothing to solve the water entering your basement 8' or so deep.

Check your private mail for the phone number you asked for.

Wg

[BESTBOYZ]

Hi There
I Also Have Same Confusion....

I Live In Home, Nj, 18 Years Old... Both Side Gutters Are Connected To 3 Inch Pipe And Its Taking Water To Street (front Side Of Home Where There Is Road ) And Also My Sumpum Water Out Let Is Connected To The Same Pipe.. I Have Both Side Of Home Such Out Let Leading To Street).. During Last Rain, In My Basement I See Some Water,, Actually Dampness And Moisture In Carpet... Basement Is Finished....

As Soon As I See Water, I Called 3 Water Proofing Company For Inspection.. All Sales Person Were Very Pushy And Even Without Looking At The Problem All Said Same Solution... French Drain Will 100% Solve Problem... Very High Quote Then If I Make Immediate Decision, They Will Give 40% Discount And That Sort Of Story.. I Could Not Believe That For Such A Problem Where We See Little Of Water In One Corner Of Home, Why Would We Have To Break The Floor ?? What About The Strength Of Floor ?? Why Do We Need To Drill Hole In Wall And Invite More Water ??

I Started Reading On Internet... I Fix The Grade Around Home And All Gutter Spout And Try To Fix From Out Side....

Then I Came Across Sani Tred And Other Urathan Base Coating From Inside And Read About It....

Now I Am In Big Confusion About What To Do ? If They Will Break The Floor And Still Problem Is Not Solve Then ? Or Can I Use Sanitred Or Other Urathane Base Coating And Will They Withstand Any Water Pressure Or Its Temporary Fix ??

Backside Of My Home Is Concret Patio So My Question Is What Is The Right Solution ? How Effective Is French Drain From Inside ?? And What Is Better Way To Go ???

I Also Can Not Drain Water Outside On Street As Per My City, So I Am Also Thinking To Building Dry Well ??

So Is There Anyway Which Can Solve Water Problem And Drainage ? And How Effective Is Urathane Coating And Does They Work ??

I Have No Idea If My House Has A Perimeter Drainage Outside Home Or Not ???

Any Idea ???

Thanks Guys

[Wgoodrich]

Bestboyz, you are hijacking an existing post. If we answer your posts on this guys thread many will not pick it up as a new post and miss the information we provide for you.

Please copy your post and start a new thread with a title and enter what you said here on the new post in your titled thread. Then we will delete your reply here so people will know where to look in your new post so others can learn as you learn.

Wg

[BESTBOYZ]

hi there
i am sorry .. i was not aware of hijecking... i have post it as a new topic... thanks again...

[madman]

WG,

Last week I was able to get in touch with your contact at Miller Eads. He informed me that it would not make sense for their company to service me since it is a small residential job and they are too far away; however, we did discuss the issue for 15 minutes and he was very help (and appeared to be a very nice guy).

He recommended that I start by having Roto Rooter / Ben Franklin come out and inspect the current drainage system. He said that they should charge an hourly rate and for <$500 I should be able to find out if the drain tiles are cracked / clogged.

If there are major problems with the current system then he said that replacing the interior perimeter drainage system was not a bad way to go.

I called Ben Franklin but they do not service the city of Chicago so I now have an appointment this Saturday with Roto Rooter. I will report back after my appointment.

Thanks!

[Wgoodrich]

Let us know what you find and how it goes. I am surprised the he recommended a perimeter drain replacement inside the basement. A perimeter drain system should be outside the basement not inside. You report of him advising an interior perimeter drain is a surprise to me knowing his skills.

Good Luck

Wg

[madman]

WG,

I think he recommended looking into the solution because, according to my memory of our conversation, the price is relatively cheap ($4,000-$5,000) and in a town house in Chicago he realizes my options to do anything from the outside are very limited.

One point of confusion for both of us during our phone call was if the current drainage system lies under the basement floor or is it lies outside the perimeter of the basement and then enters the basement at the sump system. I had always assumed the old clay tiles were placed under the floor at the perimeter but he said they should be outside the walls of the basement but at an elevation lower than floor depth.

I am still not sure what is correct and may not know until if / when the floor is removed.

[madman]

Since I last posted I have met with a regional manager from Roto Rooter and have called another base / crawlspace specialist. The rep from Roto Rooter stopped by for roughly 45 min to review the property and the basement. I originally called him to run a camera through the drain tile but upon further inspection he told me it would be a waste of money since there was a 90% chance the tiles were cracked and a 99% chance there was no drainage tiles in the troubled areas.

He said that the drain tile was being used to connect the basement sink and floor drain but there is little chance that it was a full perimeter drainage system. His final recommendation was to remove my exterior downspouts from the ground and to start using rain barrels and then, to repair the basement, he gave me the same recommendation of digging a 2ft trench 1ft out from the wall roughly 1.5 ft deep around the perimeter of the basement and install a drainage system, recover with concrete, rebuild the sump basin and add a two stage sump pump system.

I spoke with a basement specialist the next day and he basically told me the same thing. Interior perimeter drain and new sump system.

[Wgoodrich]

Did you ask how much he charged to do the camera analysis ? So a few clay tiles may be broke. To dig down and repair those broken tiles would surely be less expensive and more proper than a less desireable through the floor drainage fix in my opinion. I still disagree with all the advice you have been receiving and have backed my stance up with minimum building standards and facts. Did they provide fact and standards to support their cheaper fix ideas ? It is your time to think with the knowledge you have been provided. It is your home and your basic right to choose for yourself using the info you have received.

Have you ever been a lone wolf standing on the right side of an issue with everyone else advising a fix that is cheaper and easier ? This is where I have been on this forum subject. I have a concern with all the advice of an interior drainage system cutting through the basement floor running to a sump pit. I predict if you opt for this cheaper fix you will regret it. I have provided you with a copy of the International Residential Building code rules in addressing subsurface water around a basement. It speaks only of an exterior drainage system. Nowhere is an interior drainage system as you discribe mentioned in the minimum building standards I already provided you. Below is a link to a building science link that writes books on the subject and teaches for degrees in building design. It shows details with pictures how this should be done. It does speak of an interior drainage as a less desirable repair but then speaks of concern of sealing this floor and basement to protect from radon gas as required by code also.

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/primers/plonearticlemultipage.2006-12-05.5229931729/section-2-recommendations/?searchterm=basement

When you cut through the floor and drain to an interior sump pit you just opened the outside elements to the inside of your basement. As I mentioned before there is no limit to the influx of water during a 100 year flood condition. If your sump pump is not rated at least 120 gallons per minute with 7 foot of head then I predict at some time you will have a swimming pool for a basement in your future. Then the radon gas concern mentioned can be researched at the following link for your knowledge. If your basement was built with a vapor barrier as required under your basement floor your contractors will be opening that vapor barrier up adding to radon gas exposure. On the following link about halfway down the page is a government link you can click to learn more about the risks of this gas the vapor barrier under your floor was designed to help keep out of your home.


http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/information-sheets/1-foundations-and-site-work/soil-gas-control/#Figure_01

I have provided about all the info I can to give you the knowledge to make an informed decision. Those advising the through the floor drainage fixes, have they informed you as much facts as I have ? You now have the knowledge to make an informed decision. Let us know what you decide.

Good Luck

Wg