Florida damage

[mdshunk]

After seeing the pictures on the news of fairly modern construction, even concrete block buildings, completely leveled by the hurricane I am forced to evaluate how I feel about building codes. While I feel that codes have saved many lives and properties, I wonder how much stricter they should or should not be. Since apparently modern buildings are leveled by strong hurricanes anyhow, why not let them build cheaply so that they can replace cheaply? Maybe I'm full of crap, but that's the first thing I thought of when I saw the damage. Heck, if whole areas are full of otherwise flimsy mobile homes that are sure to be destoryed, why not let the builders construct affordable housing to the same standards? With modern radar and weather prediction computers, it doesn't seem likely that anyone's going to get "surprised" by a bad storm with no time to evacuate. Does it? Again, I know maybe I'm all mixed up. This is just a thought that occured to me... not trying to stir anyone up... just thought I might start an open minded discussion on the matter.

[Homer]

I guess that these days nobody will be surprised by a hurricane.

However, in almost every corner of the continent, severe summer thunderstorms can generate tornados almost without warning.

The destructive power of these tiny localized tornados is greater than a hurricane if they happen to single your property out.

I guess that sub-standard houses wouldn't stand up to these infrequent, improbable, but deadly tornados.

Homer

[rlfrazee]

I wonder how much influence the insurance companies have on the building codes? Seems I remember back when "Andrew" blew through southern Florida and pretty much relocated the metropolis of Homestead. There was much talk by the insurers of requiring stricter codes then. A few big insurers got out of Florida homeowners insurance all together. I have to believe that Hurricane insurance now days has got to be pretty eye-popping to the pocket book if you live in Florida. Bet they play heck getting their moneys worth out of those guys when they file claim. I'll also bet that there were a whole bunch of clause changes to policies reducing coverage if certain building codes were not met. Those people are going to find out the hard way about those policy changes. I agree for the most part with Mdshunk, thing is those people who live in mobile homes cant afford housing I dont think. At the cheapest it would be more costly than what they live in now. Plus I wonder if you can even insure mobile homes or affordable housing against hurricane damage. Anybody seen the plans for a Hurricane proof house? I believe they have to be concrete formed walls I think Texas Tech has done extensive high wind studies on structures. It would be interesting to read what they have discovered.
I dont see any way to pass legislation that would require building codes to meet hurricane standards. Waiting to see what insurers "show up" after Charley. There will again be much talk about building codes in the aftermath of this hurricane. I suspect it will again come done to money, money money....RL

[suemarkp]

In some ways I'd like to see houses made to a graded standard, say floor loading A, wind resistance B, electrical A, plumbing C, HVAC D, fire resistance B, energy efficiency A. The lowest rating (D) would be the minimal acceptable safety codes. The higher levels would contain "nicer" design features, better materials, and more strength as applicable (and a higher cost in most cases). This way, people would know what they were buying. Our county property assessor website has a building grade for every house from 1 to 10, but I don't know what that really covers and it seems real subjective.

But I think this approach would be even more confusing for tradesmen, and the builders would probably just build to the lowest grade (say D for everything). I'm sure if you tried to codify the different levels, meeting those compliance levels and inspecting for compliance would be way tougher than what we have now. The people who write code books would probably love the idea!

Perhaps just letting the old pieces of junk get obliterated and rebuilt to a standard state building code is the best way . You can try to get the builder (and especially the rebuilder) to exceed code if you are specific and put it in writing before you start. Perhaps the building permit chain is a compromise -- if you can show that work was performed at various times and inspected, it could be assumed that those portions are to a newer version of code which should be "better". This assumes that newer code is better, and I don't think that is always true.

[Wgoodrich]

Well guys you all get what you want. After the last hurricane that destroyed so many homes and buildings in Florida the insurace company designed and created as well as obtained many State certification and law supports what is now called a Code enforcement grading system. This grading system is done by an insurance and state and federal approved independant investigation company that is and has been visiting local Code enforcement agencies throughout the Nation and all State government clear down to the local yocalls. My jurisdiction was graded concerning the previous inspector and we received teh grade report of my jurisdiction before I became the building inspector. Our previous inspector was not Nationally Certified, we did not perform plan reveiw of prints and designs of each dwelling before it was approved to release permits to build and other factors provided us with a grade of not being rated. In laymen's terms we were graded by this independant invesigation and grading company ordained by State and insurance commissions as not being a recognized Code enforcement division. REsults of this not rated grading of our jurisdiction then went to the insurance rating commission thus each and every home owner in our jurisdiction had their home insurance rate raised to its highest cost factor.

We have since been regraded with me carrying 4 national certifications and yet have not received the results. While we do require extensive plan review from footer to first floor, involving flood, wind speed, frost depth, soil reports for septic systems and footer bearing etc. we still do not require a complete set of engineered prints to review before permits are approved to be let. I suspect we will now be recognized due to the validated and ceritified inspectors having been tested and proven inspector skills per each code per each occupation of building I do believe we will be strongly penalized by not required engineered prints for plan review of each home sub surface to roof before permits are issued. WE will still be penalized on each home insured in Shelby County concerning insurance rates we will be getting rating and credits for what we do have in plan review and proven skills. This new grading activity is about a 40 page questionaire involving everything from frost, flood, wind speed, tornado, hurricane, siezmic ratings, and pseunamies. Very detailed and took my office with three people working on it 30 days to answer an validate required before these guys visited me to grade our code enforcement division.

AS for the Code addressing hurricanes, high winds, earthquakes etc. All is addressed in the IRC and IBC. Wall bracing, uplift pressure per wind speed rating of your area, siezmic ratings of your area requiring braced walls etc. is all involved in these new codes. Problem is skill level of builders and inspectors that don't know they don't know concerning these design requirements. All the need rules in design is in those codes right down to listing your own county in those Code books if you are in the USA concerning all the ratings from wind, sun, heat, frost, etc.

Then for the ones looking for the lets forget the code and allow alternative building methods so we can have cheap affordable housing you have the Manufactured and mobile home alternative design that will not with stand any of the above concerns but is more affordable for the less affluent people wanting a place to live.

All that you guys have mentioned is addressed in the Codes valid today. Problem now is a mass education program getting the knowledge out to everyone. That is what I am doing on my web site, my books, the forum, and as an inspector and educator. Not just electrical but building also as well as plumbing. Education is sneaking into the industry but it is slow to grow and hard to succeed to saturate the entire building industry of all trades. We will all have been retired before the impact of all the new codes are implemented evenly across the nation. Don't forget errosion is involved in politics, and money influence bucking all involved in this new building revelution.

Keep in there as time goes by you will see the knowledge grow nationwide.

Good Luck

Wg

[Fineimages]

Just thought I would add an interjection here. My father, who passed away last year, was a structural engineer for 55 years, mostly with the Corp. of Engineers but also in the private sector. Here in Louisville, we had a major tornado blow through back in 1972. (The one that also hit Zena, OH.) Many buildings were totally destroyed, yet others had minimal damage. Dad was always a firm believer in the idea that codes and load calculations were MINIMUMS. There has to be some common sense applied to those rules, something he felt that computers can't do very well. He always looked at a lot more variables when deciding how thick a concrete wall should be, or a beam. When that tornado came through, buildings that he designed had minimal damage, where buildings right in the same path or near to the path had much worse damage. I've always tried to keep that in mind when designign anything. Call it a tribute to my father. <G> So, I guess my point is, when we quit using common sense in conjunction with codes and rules, we are taking a risk. OK, off my sopabox.
Alan

[Jdog]

Just my two cents............. The destructive forces of ole momma nature are completely unpredictable. Granted a tornado is more destructive in one sense, a tropical system (ie tropical storm or hurricane) is prolonged....kinda a derned if you do, derned if you dont situation......With a tornado, movement is relatively quick.....

I am assuming most posters in this forum are landlocked......Where I lay my pillow down is on the east coast. Last year we had the remnants of Isabel decimate our area. Went it came over us, winds weren't even "hurricane" status. B/C I work for a local utility company, I got to see some absolutely amazing destruction--we were allowed into the areas that were really hammered.

Just had Alex blow through, then a week later Bonnie, then two days later Charley.....to add insult to injury, the cold front that steered Charley came through dumping untold rainfall...........In a ten day period we had around 23" of rain.......

Tornados destroy with wind......Tropical events have sustained wind (greater than 39 mph), huge volumes of rain, and for coastal dwellers a storm surge.

To sum it up, mother nature can be a real b***h sometimes............

[Wgoodrich]

I always said this about lightening when asked but now that we are talking about mother nature we could answer the question; What can mother nature do? Anything she wants as bad or good as she wants with no limits either way.

Enjoy what we can and live with what he have dealt to us. Be as prepared as we can but then you are limited by that one big thing. How much money should be spent and what is right when spending it.

More we know the more we find we don't know.

That that last statement can never be challenged ! Ha Ha.

Wg

[Jacksnap]

Here is a link some eye popping video of Charley. Many of the videos are shot with the 'eye' passing right over the photog.
http://www.weathervine.com/hurricanes/charley/