Sub Panel Location

[*gbeichho]

#720: Sub Panel Location Author: gbeichho, Location: Toronto, Canada Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:53 am
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Location: Ontario, Canada
I'll be overhauling my kitchen, so I figure I should probably bring the electrical system there up to code while I'm at it. In order to do this I'll need to add a bunch of new circuits and of course my main panel doesn't have the room.

From the reading I've done, it's common to add a separate panel for kitchen loads, leaving the really heavy loads (range and heating) going to the main panel.

So I'm thinking of adding a sub-panel for kitchen load (lighting, countertop, microwave, fridge, dishwasher, fan) and dining room load (lighting and fan), and maybe an outdoor lighting ciruit (floodlights only).
I'm putting the outdoor lighting on this sub-panel because it groups all of the breakers together that get left on when I leave the cottage -- lights and fridge.

I've calculated that #8 Copper with 50 AMP fuses should be more than adequate for the load.

My debate is where to put the sub-panel. I have 2 choices:
1) right beside the main panel
(short run, all current runs terminate there, and it is on a wall that backs onto the kitchen anyways)
2) On the other side of the wall inside a closet (this closet will be a big walk-in)

Any thoughts?

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#724: Author: wannabee, Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:51 am
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USA not allowed to put a panel in closet. You should do an entire dwelling calculation to be sure your existing main panel will be large enough to handle new loads. If not you may have to increase main service panel and while doing you could then arrange circuits for simplicity when leaving. Do those calculations(Click above) and compare with what you have there.

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#748: Author: Wgoodrich, Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:43 pm
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According to the CEC 8 awg copper is only allowed to be protected with a maximum breaker size of 40 amps not 50 amps.

Now how you calculated may be in error.

2 - 20 amp branch circuit loads alone equals 40 amps
Range equals 40 amps.

Those two loads alone far exceed what you calculated.


A sub panel is not necessary. You could mark in red the breakers to be left on in the main service rated panel when leaving. Then turn all other breakers would be shut off.

A sub panel would be of little gain for you in my opinion.

Also there are many rules in the CEC concerning kitchens. A good place to pick a bit of info up is to hit the Canadian code subject in this forum. Part of this subject is being discussed there now. Worth reading. You should pick up you are required 20 amp wiring for receptacles in the kitchen with 20 amp split receptacles specially placed or alternative wiring as discussed in that forum subject. Also be aware GFI protection is required.

Good Luck and do your research first.

Wg

[gbeichho]

According to the CEC 8 awg copper is only allowed to be protected with a maximum breaker size of 40 amps not 50 amps.

That's interesting, because it looks like you're right, but I took this straight out of Knight's Electrical Code Simplified (Ontario):

Kitchen Electrical loads - If the 2nd panel supplies lights and plugs in the kitchen area as well as other loads such as the garburator, dishwasher compactor etc. but not an electric range or dryer or any electric heating:

Sub feeder Size #8 Copper Loomex cable. 50 amp fuses or circuit breakers
Sub Panel Size 12 or more circuit panel is recommended.


So now I'm a bit confused...

From a load perspective it is a simple calculation:

Fridge (1500W), Microwave (1500W), Dishwasher (1500W), Let's assume the worst case scenario and add 3 plugged in appliances (Steamer, Blender, Toaster) @ 3000W. Add 1000W for lighting and the total is 8500W or 35.4A.

I think that should work fine. I think I've covered all the CEC kitchen rules (including the GFCI question in the other thread). That's why I need all the extra circuits, so I can meet the huge number of counter circuits required.

[Wgoodrich]

Table 2 of the CEC states that 8 awg wire has an ampacity of 40 amps. A breaker installed to protect that conductor can not exceed the ampacity rating of that conductor. That is where I came up with the 40 amps.

What size service to you have for this dwelling that you need so many more circuits than the panel is designed for?

Just curious

Wg

[southof 7]

As the other member mentioned you will need to run #6 copper for the 50 Amp breaker. However before you get confused . The ruling concerning 20 amp receptacles in the kitchen counter area does not require them to be split only alternating. So you cannot have two receptacles next to each other on the same breaker. In the case of using 15 amp breakers and 14 awg you will need to split the receptacles and alternate, yes within 1 m of the sink they will need to be on gfci breakers.[/COLOR]