Ha ha, help! Easy way out?

[coffeegod]

I apologize ahead of time, for it's kind of hard to describe the compound problems of this project. So hopefully someone can make out what I'm trying to do :)

So if anyone recalls, I had the post in the "Wall of Shame" of the cinder block holding my kitchen up. Such a beautiful house I bought.

Anyways I'm trying to figure out how to fix this problem. Our kitchen and laundry room sit in this section of the house. Roughly in an area of 13'x24. Now after really exploring my house for the last 6 months I've discovered that this whole area is almost just floating in the air. There are no floor joists and ceiling joists in this whole area but a couple "beams" 6 feet apart consisting of 3 2x8's then 2x10 laying flat across these from one wall to the other and about 3 layers of OSB on top of them which makes our floor up for this area. Nice huh.

So what I'd like to do is rip out the entire floor and put in proper floor joists with a good sturdy 3/4" plywood sub floor. Now there is NO foundation under this part of the house either. I'm wondering is it feasable to joist hang all my joists from one side of this area to the other? It has a 13' span. Maybe 2x10's, then of course have a beam under both outside walls. To build some sort of foundation here would be an insane task with out ripping out the entire mid section of my house, roof and all.

I'll post a 3D model I've been drawing up as an idea of how I want our house layout to be and a couple photo's of the floor under the kitchen.

I think this part of the house has been stressing me out the most. Sorry about the fuzzy pictures, they didn't like being resized.

By the way, looking at the incomplete model to the left of the kitchen.... our bedrooms and bathroom, this is on some sort of foundation... I think for the most part hehe. Right side of the kitchen is our dining room and (living room which is outside of the shot) this is built on top of a basement which hasn't been drawn in yet either. If this helps.

[pushkins]

Why are the beams all wet ?

Tearing out the entire floor may be a nightmare you ( or ya wife most importantly...lol) don't want to live in while doing it.

How tall is this area under the kitchen? you seem to have plenty of room to get in and under this area, I see your shovel in the picture.
You could always attach joist hangers to that "wet" beam (once it's dry) and run to the opposite beam and then install 2 x 10 joists to support the existing sub floor(s). This way you don't have to rip out the horizontal 2x10's and three layers of sub floor.

It looks like that 4 x 10 isn't supported all that well either.

Another option might be to dig down and concrete in some pier footings and install on top of these "lally" jacks and use the jacks as a way to hold up new bearers

[scuba_dave]

*shudder* I had to double check you rloaction & make sure that wasn't my old house
Built in 1905 & added onto, supported by piers in a crawl space that looks like yours. I had one wall that had fallen when I bought the house. Turns out they used untreated plywood.
I jacked up the wall & put cinder blocks in as a wall
Then lowered the wall back down

I had an area that looked like yours near my front door
Dug down & put a solid cement block in. Jacked up area then put a pier in for support

My kitchen had about 14 layers of floor, 6" "step" into the other room. I moved fridge & everything to side room & gutted the kitchen. Washer & dryer were also in a laundry closet beside the fridge. Leaks from washer & bathtub behind kitchen wall had rotted the floor out
Took it all apart, sistered new joist in, then new subfloor
Took the bathroom apart & sistered new joist in that were level

On the backwall of the house I dug down & put another cement block wall in. This supported the bathroom & kitchen washer/dryer/fridge area

I redid every pier, adding concrete under each pier

ANYTHING that touches soil will rot away & fall apart
Better to do it right the 1st time
They used cement board between outside piers (treated with preservative - looked like tar) to form a barrier against the soil

If you want it done right Then make the outside wall 1st with support. That beam "hanging" in the dirt needs better support. My outside wall was insulated with insulation board all the way around. The crawl space was fully enclosed. Plastic on the ground to prevent moisture from coming up thru the dirt
My floor was insulated to living area. The crawl space still stayed warmer then the outside once it was fully sealed up

Its a lot of work, but I bought the place for $23k & sold it 6 years later for $240k

[coffeegod]

Why are the beams all wet ?

Tearing out the entire floor may be a nightmare you ( or ya wife most importantly...lol) don't want to live in while doing it.

How tall is this area under the kitchen? you seem to have plenty of room to get in and under this area, I see your shovel in the picture.
You could always attach joist hangers to that "wet" beam (once it's dry) and run to the opposite beam and then install 2 x 10 joists to support the existing sub floor(s). This way you don't have to rip out the horizontal 2x10's and three layers of sub floor.

It looks like that 4 x 10 isn't supported all that well either.

Another option might be to dig down and concrete in some pier footings and install on top of these "lally" jacks and use the jacks as a way to hold up new bearers

Well worst case we just move all our our appliances down to our dining room and buy one of those little dual hot plates to cook with since our range is gas. The woman and I already discussed that one :) As in the photo I attached there's a fair bit of room for the first 4' of the 13' after that the dirt is pretty close to the bottom of the floor. I would like to dig out that whole area right back to the bedroom side of the house and see what things look like on that side. Hence the shovel... man, pretty tough digging though. As for the wet beams the ground is right up to the top on the other side and of course all the snow and ice is melting now and started to trickle in. That's another can of worms. Only thing about leaving the subfloor is that there are a lot of "squishy " spots, even the subfloor isn't done well. I'm really surprised... with all that 2x10 they could of built proper joists but instead they made a carpet out of them.

As for the 4x10 I think it was only placed in there to hold up that side of the house while the "rest" of the house was built on to the side of it. Looks like a backhoe had been under there and dug a few trenches. So really the only thing I think that is doing is holding up one 3' corner of the house where the house gets narrower.

By the way I did stick a jack post under that one 2x8 beam at the end... the nice one that was held up by that chunk of wood that's been kicked out. That's right where my washing machine sits... computer next to that, you should of felt how the ol' spin cycle feels in here. Shake your brains up.

When you say lally jacks, is that the same as my jack post... aka telepost. Steel adjustable post with the threaded doohicky at the top lol... getting late.

[coffeegod]

*shudder* I had to double check you rloaction & make sure that wasn't my old house
Built in 1905 & added onto, supported by piers in a crawl space that looks like yours. I had one wall that had fallen when I bought the house. Turns out they used untreated plywood.
I jacked up the wall & put cinder blocks in as a wall
Then lowered the wall back down

I had an area that looked like yours near my front door
Dug down & put a solid cement block in. Jacked up area then put a pier in for support

My kitchen had about 14 layers of floor, 6" "step" into the other room. I moved fridge & everything to side room & gutted the kitchen. Washer & dryer were also in a laundry closet beside the fridge. Leaks from washer & bathtub behind kitchen wall had rotted the floor out
Took it all apart, sistered new joist in, then new subfloor
Took the bathroom apart & sistered new joist in that were level

On the backwall of the house I dug down & put another cement block wall in. This supported the bathroom & kitchen washer/dryer/fridge area

I redid every pier, adding concrete under each pier

ANYTHING that touches soil will rot away & fall apart
Better to do it right the 1st time
They used cement board between outside piers (treated with preservative - looked like tar) to form a barrier against the soil

If you want it done right Then make the outside wall 1st with support. That beam "hanging" in the dirt needs better support. My outside wall was insulated with insulation board all the way around. The crawl space was fully enclosed. Plastic on the ground to prevent moisture from coming up thru the dirt
My floor was insulated to living area. The crawl space still stayed warmer then the outside once it was fully sealed up

Its a lot of work, but I bought the place for $23k & sold it 6 years later for $240k

I bet that was one hell of a happy day when you sold your nightmare haha. Definitely have about the same situations here. See I'm under the impression that if I did the 2x10 joists with the 13' span I could get away with out the block walls.... possibly? Or is this an insane thought of treating my kitchen as a deck in a way? Money is also a HUGE concern, I know any reno isn't cheap but we're also broke most of the time, that's why I'm still in the planning stage :)

But say I did the 13' joists and essentially make both outside walls 3 2x10 beams underneath joist hang it all I should probably still put a few piers under the outside walls to carry the wight of the roof correct? How many should I use for a 13' section?

My ceiling in this area is even more amazing, I went up there to do some insulation over one of the bedrooms and thought I'd crawl the length of the house while I was up there and see what else I could find. Low and behold I have homemade truss's through out the house which is fine, except for "the area once again" where there is one 2x10 laying flat again in the middle then a couple 2x4s as just a nailing edge for the drywall on the ceiling then filled this giant floating ceiling with 4 inches of ripped up rolled roofing and wood chips for insulation. EXCELLENT! How I didn't fall though is pretty amazing, that's some tough drywall. So the roof there is just 2x6's running from the ridge plate down to the top of the outside walls and nailed. As terrible as this sounds, which it is I'm thinking vaulting the ceilings in here could be a good possiblity since I have no ceiling joists anyways. Maybe just screw some 2x8s along side of all the 2x6's to vault perhaps. Would be nice to get some more height in the kitchen.

Anyways I've rambled and asked a zillion questions.

[pushkins]

As soon as that snow has melted I'd be dealing with that water problem asap, that in it's self can and will lead to more serious problems than you have now.

Where ever you put the new 2x10 joists you will want at least 24" of clear space under neath them (crawlspace). You should also install a vapor barrier on the ground as well.

Are the "squishy" spots deteriorated wood or is it "bounce" from lack of a proper floor joist system? If it is the latter then simply installing a floor joist system or beams to support the existing sub floor under it may well solve your problems. The biggest problem you may have with removing the entire existing flooring system is that the horizontal 2x10's probably run under the existing walls, both interior and exterior and to remove these would be no easy feat.
In your photo are the horizontal 2x10's running the 13" span or the 23' span ?

If it were me I think I'd be installing pier footings with block foundations or lally jacks (same as your jack posts) sitting on them with new bearers on top of these to support he existing sub floor (if the sub floor is salvageable). The piers could be spaced 6' apart to add even more support to the 2x10's laying flat. So if they needed to run on the 13' perpendicular to the 2x10's that would be 1 at the start, one in the middle (6.5') and one at the other end, on the 23' running perpendicular to the 2x10's, 1 at the start, 6', 12', 18' and one at the end (23').

As you mentioned you could treat your 13 x 23' space as a "deck" in as far as the joists, however tying all areas of the foundation into one house is a much , much better situation.

If you have to remove the existing sub floor then your problems come around 10 fold, you will have to at least remove some of the interior walls to allow the removal of the 2x10's and 3 layers of OSB. Removing these walls sounds like it becomes problematic with your ceiling joist system or random lack there of.
That is all after you address the issue of the load bearing walls sitting on top of the horizontal 2x10's you want to remove

Any way you look at it you have a project ahead of you.

[scuba_dave]

I had an additional problem - critters - hence the cement block walls. One skunk & generations of mice (killed 14 in the 1st winter). I also didn't have the outside support beams under the walls. In one area I installed a Soapstone wood stove, so I wanted a lot of support in that area
I started to dig my crawl space out, it was bone dry the 1st year I bought the house. But it was wet in years after so I stopped - very high water table

Depending upon how they installed the floor support you may have a problem pulling it all out as Pushkins said
If they installed it inside the wall perimeter it will all come out. If they installed it 1st, then built the walls on top then you have a problem

Myself I'd cut it out & put in the flor joists & support the whole thing as pushkins stated

One idea if they built the wall on top is to cut up to the wall, possibly leaving a 4-6" "ledge" that will stay around the outside wall - leaving the floor pieces intact. Then just box them in for looks - sort of like how baseboard heat would look going around the outside edge

All depends upon how everything ties together. You need to make sure everything is supported. My front door would not open very well the 1st year, After jacking & levelling & new door it was fine. But it was a quick fix & needed to be redone several years later. I just had too much to do that 1st year

Kitchen & Laundry have a lot of weight between washer & fridge. So make sure its all supported. I had kitchen, laundry & bathtub in same area, so I needed a lot of support

[coffeegod]

Sounds good guys, I'll try drawing all that up and see what you think in a few days here. As for the squishy spots I'm pretty sure it's how the subfloor was built. I don't think all the sheets of OSB were butted up against each other. The one back bedroom I just finished cutting out the floor right up aganst the wall, wall was built on top. It was all 1x4 T&G but I think over time the house had sunk a bit and made the floor & ceiling very unlevel. Luckely there were floor joists here so I bought one of those spinning laser levels and sistered new 2x8 joists on to the existing ones with 3" screws but on a level plain. Did the same for the ceiling. Lost some height to the room but now it's the most level, strong and non-squeaky floor we have! That T&G was REALLY noisy. Feels really weird to walk on a level floor haha.

Pushkins, I'll take a couple photos of the grounds grade around the house, that's another huge project I think after the kitchen floor is done.

Here's a couple of the last room I was doing, still have to finish mudding and sanding then I can finally paint and put some flooring in and get the kid out of our room. :P

By the way the beams that do run under the kitchen, they are running the 23' span.

[scuba_dave]

That looks good, I tackled one room at a time
No wife at the time so the kitchen was last - after I had a girlfriend LOL. I used to paint the kitchen floor every year for the 1st few years until I gutted it
I left my front hall & kitchen floors a little un-level
Both sloped towards the middle of the house
All houses in the area used to be summer cottages
Almost all had the same issues

23' span make sure you support that in the middle

And - if you are changinf/making support changes in the crawlspace. DO THAT 1st before you do any mudding
I re-sheetrocked/mudded main room room 1st
Then redid the supports - everything cracked

[coffeegod]

Yeah I think I'd rather go the 13' span, it would make more sense to me. Less support needed too.

The only mistake I made with that other room is I vapor barriered and put the drywall up on the ceiling then thought I'd insulate from inside the roof before I did the mudding and taping. Haha there's no room to crawl around up there, I had to drag myself around on my stomach. I won't be doing that again, not that big of a room but hours in insulating time with that method. :P Live and learn.

[Larry1234]

I might be jumping into the past, but one "opportunity" you may have with your house is to put some concrete under it. In the first picture it looks like you have a space under your kitchen that's somewhat open and already partially dug out. If you put a layer of concrete on the dirt walls and the dirt "floor" you could get some very cheap storage space. If all you plan to use it for is storage, you wouldn't need any wiring or probably anything but light, maybe some insulation.

Just a thought, I don't know if it's opened up more over the rest of your house or if it would be easy to make accessible.

Larry
Buildings (http://constructionmachines.org/Construction/Modular-Pre-Fab-Buildings) and Fastners (http://buymro.net/Industrial-Supply-MRO/Fasteners-and-Hardware)