Pushmatic Panels?

[williamsmithaud]

On a recent service call I found that the house's service panel was a
'Pushmatic Electri-Center.' It also said 'Automatic Protection Push
Button Control by Bulldog Electric Prod. Co. of Detroit, MI.' I have never
seen a panel like this before and after doing an online search could
only find out that the trademark is now owned by Siemens. Does anyone
have any info on these systems? Or schematics?

The owner is selling the house and thinks he may be required to upgrade the panel. I would appreciate anybodys opinion about replacing such a panel. I didn't see any obvious problems with the panel, but it is really old. The owner said that the AC breaker does trip once in a while however. I also suspect that breakers would be hard to find and probably expensive.

[mdshunk]

Pushmatic is my favorite residential panel. The breakers are very expensive now.

Schematics? I don't understand what you mean. It's just a panel. They are normally replaced, as they are older and they sorta get a bad rap because they can be a little hard to push and you need to look in the little window to read 'on' or 'off'.

[williamsmithaud]

Thanks for your reply. The owner mentioned that the AC breaker trips occasionally. Are pushmatics prone to this when they get old?

In any event, I will recommend the panel be replaced with a modern main breaker load center. That will raise the next question of where the replacement panel will be located:

It could be replaced at its current location (hallway closet in center of house), and a disconnect could be put by the meter. That would be the least expensive way.
The other option would be to put the new panel in the garage (there is no basement) or on an outside wall near the meter. That option would be considerably more expensive.
Keeping in mind that the owner just wants to sell the property without incurring major expense, I would appreciate your thoughts on these two options (or any others you may have).

[mdshunk]

Thanks for your reply. The owner mentioned that the AC breaker trips occasionally. Are pushmatics prone to this when they get old?.
No more than any other brand of breaker. I will say, however, that it is more common for a/c's to start to trip breakers as the air conditioner itself ages.

[ggratecc]

I have a pushmatic panel in a commercial setting, I have been maintaining
for 25 years (although panel is probably 50 years old). I totally agree with Marc...It is a good panel, but hard
to read the on/off in the window.
Put it another way, I have never had to take the cover off of this
panel! It has always been a branch circuit load or fault problem
if the cb tripped; such as lighting ballast melting, 3 refrigerators on
one circuit, etc.

[mdshunk]

The biggest failure point among any brand of breaker panel is where the breaker clips onto the buss rail. Every brand of residential breaker panel suffers this problem. Some brands very severely, and some not as much.
Pushmatic doesn't suffer from this at all. It is (was) the only residential panel in which the breakers actually bolted onto the buss rail, thus eliminating the #1 cause of breaker and panel failures. If it was not for the hard to read on/off window on the breaker, I'm positive that panel and breaker would still be in production today.

[Ashokan1]

On another note... if you upgrade the service to a modern panel is it in compliance with code to keep it in the closet even with an outside disconnect?

[williamsmithaud]

Glad you ask that. I want to know too. Hope someone with knowledge replies.

[tim_eagle]

I realized you stated that pushmatic breakers were expensive, where can I buy them? Please advise.

Tim Eagle
http://www.timeagle.com

[joed]

On another note... if you upgrade the service to a modern panel is it in compliance with code to keep it in the closet even with an outside disconnect?

Panel can not be in a closet. It must have a space 30 x 36 x 6'7". You are not allowed to store anything within that space.

[Ohm1]

Joe is correct per title E3305.4 then NEC 110.26(B), and 240.24(D)! Your options would be to move the panel, or flip it to the outside--depending on it's current location and local code requirements.

[richardmaheu]

The other night I plugged in a 1500 watt electric heater, and after a few minutes, all the lights in my 1958 house went out. I unplugged the heater, and went outside to the breaker box. I pressed all the 'Pushmatic' breakers (probably shouldn't have done that, but I wasn't sure which one was the problem). After a few tries, everything was working again, including the socket I had plugged the heater into, but there a few lights here and there which wouldn't go on, nor the furnace (Brrr, but it was costing me too much anyway). Next day, I could see the breakers better, and I noticed one of them wouldn't go 'on'. 'Off' always shows. It seems to press in ok, but it doesn't pop out well, like maybe it's sort of stuck, or maybe broken inside somehow. As far as I can tell, nothing is plugged into that circuit, or on. I've lived here for 25 years, and I can't recall this happening before. My first thought was that I should just call an electrician and have a new circuit breaker panel put in. Online investigation shows that some people think that's a great idea, and others think it's not necessary. There's also the question of whether I should attempt to replace the breaker myself, and save a lot of money. I'm an engineer, and I was an electronics technician in the Army, so I'm not without skills. Somebody said that working on the Pushmatic panel is very dangerous. That doesn't sound good. You're supposed to turn off the main breaker before you do anything, but the problem is, there is no breaker labeled 'Main Breaker', let alone having a sign saying 'Turn Me Off First'. There are three large breakers at the top, labeled 'Garage' (40), 'Back Room' (30), and 'Lower Main' (50). Below the last one are several 15 and 20 amp breakers, including the problem child. My question is, if I turn off all the breakers on the panel, will it be safe to replace the one that won't go on? It seems that there should be a switch outside of the circuit breaker box, so you could be sure the whole box is off, but I can't see one. The meter is right above it. Help!

[junkcollector]

What you described to me is probably as you assumed, a bad breaker. Since you said you didn't do any electrical work, I assume that there is not a short in that line. What is that breaker for?


You're supposed to turn off the main breaker before you do anything, but the problem is, there is no breaker labeled 'Main Breaker', let alone having a sign saying 'Turn Me Off First'. There are three large breakers at the top, labeled 'Garage' (40), 'Back Room' (30), and 'Lower Main' (50).
What you have is a "split bus'' panel. Basically it has no single main. The large breakers at the top are for the large appliances, plus there a double pole one for lower section, for the branch circuits as a whole. To turn off all power, push all breakers in that main section. They are all (or should be..) double pole breakers. That is, they have a link sideways so that both halves have to be turned off at once. Just curious, by the ratings of those breakers, are there other panels in the house?
My first thought was that I should just call an electrician and have a new circuit breaker panel put in. Online investigation shows that some people think that's a great idea, and others think it's not necessary.
That could be a good idea, depending on the condition. You said outside, plus at least 25 years of corrosion, may equal a deteriorated panel. Plus, what you said about one not reseting leads me to believe that they are all getting tired, and are in need of replacement soon. Pushmatic Breakers are expensive, but available. Some electricians don't think much of them, while others think they are the best. I don't have much of an opinion, because there are not too many of these panels around in my area.

There's also the question of whether I should attempt to replace the breaker myself, and save a lot of money. I'm an engineer, and I was an electronics technician in the Army, so I'm not without skills. Somebody said that working on the Pushmatic panel is very dangerous. That doesn't sound good.
It really depends on your comfort level. If you do not feel safe as you work, than don't do it! If you feel as though you have the confidence and necessary skills to proceed safely then you may choose to attempt it. Working in any panel is dangerous, especially split bus ones. There are many more exposed live parts even with the breakers off, than with a regular straight bus panel with a single main.

If you feel like you want to proceed, one of us can tell you how to do it.

[richardmaheu]

Junkcollector: Thanks for the quick reply.

What is that breaker for? Some lights in various rooms, and the furnace.

are there other panels in the house? Not that I know of. I thought 40 amps in the garage was pretty good.

If you feel like you want to proceed, one of us can tell you how to do it.

It looks pretty straightforward: Undo two screws, and replace the breaker. Is there more to it?

[junkcollector]

I thought 40 amps in the garage was pretty good.

That scares me a little.(quite a bit actually) Does this breaker feed standard receptacles? Regular loads such as lighting and 15 amp and 20 amp receptacles have no business being on a 40 amp breaker, unless there is a subpanel in the garage. You said there wasn't any more panels. The wire size is probably 14 or 12 awg. I would look into this a little more, as this is a fire hazard. The same with the breaker for that back room.


It looks pretty straightforward: Undo two screws, and replace the breaker. Is there more to it?

Okay, Remove the panel cover. Turn off all of the breakers in the main section. Verify the power is off in the branch circuit section with a voltage tester. Remove the wire from the breaker by loosening the lug screw. Pushmatics bolt in, so loosen the screw that holds the breaker to the bus. The breaker will now come out. Set the new breaker in place. Tighten the bus screw. Replace the wire back on it's screw. Restore power to the branch section and test out the new breaker. Reinstall the panel cover.

A few things to keep in mind. The main wires coming into the panel are live all the time. So are the lugs that they attach to. Keep away from them. Make sure that the power is off to that branch section. You say the panel is outside, that means more of a possible shock danger. I would stand on a dry piece of plywood. Wear safety glasses. When in doubt seek professional help.

Good luck and be safe. Let me know how it works out.:-P

[daveyd]

LOL...I thought I was the only one with a Push-Matic Panel. My house was built in 1966 and I've lived here for only 2 1/2 yrs. I have a 100 Amp Pushmatic panel in my attached 1 car garage.

I actually had a couple of slots availabe in the panel and had a 60 Amp sub panel put in my basement for my remodel project. The doofus who lived here before me actually finished the basement and had 15 outlets, 6 recessed lights, 2 upstairs outlets and the upstairs dishwasher(line run into a outlet) run off of 1, 15 Amp breaker. *sigh*

[dennisinmo]

We have a Pushmatic panel at the church. Probably installed in 1957 when the building was built. I have had to replace a few breakers because they will not reset. Luckly I have a supplyer in town that has them. This panel has split bus with mains on top of each bus. Replacing breakers is pretty simple. Getting the cover back on is the hard part.

[richardmaheu]

Junkcollector: You asked to be kept informed: Incidentally, there is another breaker panel in the garage (not Pushmatic). Sorry, I forgot about it. Anyway, I found an NOS Pushmatic 20 amp breaker on Ebay, and got it. I cleared out the Bougainvillea bush that was making access to the breaker panel difficult, got my rubber gloves, safety glasses, and piece of plywood to stand on, and went out to change what I thought was the problem breaker. The first thing to do was turn off the main breakers (double pole, 1@50, 1@40, 1@30). While attempting this, I noticed that two of them would not go ‘OFF’. Oops! Obviously, I have more problems than I thought. I came inside, looked in the Yellow Pages, and called an electrical contractor with a nice ad. I asked roughly what it would cost to replace the breaker panel. His answer? $3,800-$4,000! Gasp! So, I started thinking again about doing it myself, except this time replacing all the breakers. Besides the double-poles there are 2@20 and 3@15 single-poles. I have two questions: First, should I consider getting the used Pushmatic breakers offered on Ebay? I’m not exactly enthused about the idea, but if everyone says they’re ok, then why not? Second question: new Pushmatic breakers are available, but are there any compatibility questions? The ones that Ace Hardware has say ‘non-interchangeable’. Why does it say that? Oh, and by the way, if I replace all the breakers, is there anything else I need to be aware of, either in method or cautionary matters? Thanks - Richard

[junkcollector]

Rich,

thanks for letting me know! We appreciate updates.


First, should I consider getting the used Pushmatic breakers offered on Ebay? I’m not exactly enthused about the idea, but if everyone says they’re ok, then why not?

I don't know how much I trust used breakers to work when you need them. (I feel the same way you do...) I look at it as more of a temporary fix. Just my opinion.



Second question: new Pushmatic breakers are available, but are there any compatibility questions? The ones that Ace Hardware has say ‘non-interchangeable’. Why does it say that? Oh, and by the way, if I replace all the breakers, is there anything else I need to be aware of, either in method or cautionary matters?

What brand are they? Pushmatic is obviously not in business anymore, but some brands still make replacements. Thomas and Betts, Gam-pak, and possibly Siemens ITE (a company that bought the original company many moons ago...) If they are made specifically for a pushmatic panel, I really see no problem. Could you post a link to these?

and by the way, if I replace all the breakers, is there anything else I need to be aware of, either in method or cautionary matters?

A picture of this panel would really help.

What you describe to me leads me to believe that the panel is in poor condition and probably should be replaced soon. What is the condition of the rest of the service? (meter box, service mast, etc.) I would get a few more bids from other contractors. (that bid sounds steep) As long as the rest of the service is in relatively good shape, and just the panel needs replacement, it shouldn't cost more than $1000 depending on the area. What did that contractor propose to replace?

Another option is to replace the panel yourself. Most choose not to go this route, and for good reason. Most average DIY'ers cannot have power disconnected by the utility, rip out the old panel, set a new one, reconnect everything, have it inspected, and have power restored all in one day. Local codes may prohibit DIY panel replacement. Lots of code rules come into play regarding grounding and bonding. If it is a real mess, it could be extremely difficult to sort out.


I hate to be the bearer of bad news....:nurse:

[richardmaheu]

JunkCollector:

Ok, attached are some photos of the panel. It doesn't appear to be in bad condition to me. I'm in San Diego, so weather extremes are greatly reduced, while on the other hand, some costs may be increased.

[junkcollector]

First of all, thanks for the picts. It doesn't look too bad for it's age. (seen MUCH worse, inside let alone...) In my area (Minnesota) we don't see too many panels outside. Usually they last less than 10 years!

I see why that bid was so high. That panel is installed flush with the wall (stucco).:eek2: Those are a big pain in the butt to replace. Also it has an integral meter box, so it has to be replaced at the same time. There aren't too many breakers in the panel, so I think that the best option for you now is to replace the nonfunctioning breakers with new ones.

Have you sourced / priced any out yet? Any info on these Ace hardware breakers? Cost? If they don't have any at your local home centers / hardware stores, try the electrical supply house. They most definitely have these, and may be a better buy (and safer...) than used Ebay breakers. I have nothing against them, I just don't know how much I trust 'em.

Remember when you go to replace those top breakers (the main section) You need to be extremely careful because the buses they attach to are hot all the time. :shock::shock:

[richardmaheu]

Junkcollector:

Thanks again for the quick reply. Too bad I didn't notice it was on the 3rd page! DUH! I finally noticed it! I'm not going to use Ebay breakers. Who knows what condition they're actually in? Ace Hardware looks good. Prices are: 15A, $15.49, 20A $19.99, 30A double $31.95, 40A double $43.99 (?), 50A double $31.99. With the NOS Bulldog one I got already, the total will be around $200. Not too bad, and it should be good for quite a while, right? Don't worry, I'll be careful. Rubber gloves, and insulated long-nosed pliers to move the wires.

[richardmaheu]

JunkCollector:

I think I’ve finally figured out what the problem is. I just went out with a voltmeter, and checked things. Of course, I should have done that in the first place, and I would have saved myself a lot of trouble, and some money.

I got a complete of new Chicago Electric Pushmatic breakers from Acehardwareoutlet.com for $220. The 50 Amp breaker didn’t look like it would work, because the old one connects to the bus bars by metal strips, and the new one has rather large plastic ‘wings’, which looked like they would be very much in the way. Also, the switch buttons are much taller, and it looked like they wouldn’t fit under the existing cover. Rather than hack up the 50 amp breaker, I sent them all back. About $20 in shipping wasted.

Then, I put in the NOS Bulldog 20 amp (which cost about $20) to replace the breaker I thought was the problem. It didn’t make any difference, but since the old breaker wouldn’t switch right, it’s just as well.

Then I decided it must be one of the 15 amp breakers, so I bought three on Ebay from Sparky’s Place. Total cost, about $14. They arrived very quickly, and they absolutely look like new. No corrosion on the screws, switches work great, clean as a whistle. I put them in, and still no difference!

So, I finally got out there with a voltmeter. It appears that one pole of the 50 amp 'Main' breaker is not working, and none of the 15 amp breakers on that side are showing any voltage. DUH! At least I’ve learned quite a bit about my house’s wiring, located all the breaker panels, and I know how to work on pushmatic panels. Undoubtedly, a valuable skill. Now I need to get a 50 amp breaker.

Thanks for the help - Richard

[junkcollector]

Thanks for the update.:smile2:

[joed]

Did you measure the input to the main breaker? It might no be your problem.
It is not uncommon for the problem be the POCO connection at the weatherhead, transformer or the meter base.

[richardmaheu]

All fixed. I got a new ITE Pushmatic 50 amp 2-pole, on Ebay. I did have to modify it to get it to fit. As I said above, the busses bend up to attach to the upper tangs on this particular breaker, and the wings on the ITE get in the way. However, cutting them off, and doing a little additional grinding so it would fit in place of the Bulldog was not difficult. I still have to replace a couple more breakers, to have all new ones, but this was the only one that really required modification. Thanks for all advice, particularly to JunkCollector.

[joed]

Modifying breakers is never a good idea. It would never pass an inspection.

[Aardvark]

Pushmatic panels have been getting a bad rap from home inspectors who are clueless about panel quality. I have done electical work for forty years and have been performing service call work for almost twenty. The pushmatic panel is a bolt in breaker which makes it equivalent to an industrial grade panel. The trip speed on these breakers is equivalent to a Square D QO panel. If you don't believe it all you have to do is short a hot lead to ground and look at the size of the burn mark left behind. The slower the trip speed the bigger the burn. Your best experiment is to find several styles of panels such as Suare D QO, Square D Homeline, ITE, Challenger, Siemens, GE and Pushmatic. Disconnect any 15 amp circuit in the panel and hook up a #14awg copper wire to the breaker and hit it to the edge of the neutral busse with the breaker turned on. You will see that the spark and the burn left behind is much larger for the Homeline, GE, Siemens, Challenger and ITE breakers than the mark created by the Pushmatic or the Square D QO breakers. The reason, faster trip speeds, less heat, less burned metal, smaller spark. In other words they are safer than most panels out there. Since bolt in breakers are always better than snap ins this makes the Pushmatic even better. The Down side is the odd panel configuration means you have to pay more for these breakers than average and the little window is hard to read. Occasionally the off/on lettering is in the middle and without a tester or knowledge the average person can't tell if it's on or not. Also since the panel is narrower than what's commmonly found there are fewer knockouts to work with on top and bottom. The QO panel gives you the same quality speed, a red indicator window so it's easy to see if the breaker is tripped, more knockouts and cheaper breaker cost than the Pushmatic but still more expensive than the average breaker by nearly double but like they say, "YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR". Any person that already has a Pushmatic panel and wants to change to a conventional panel of lower quality just because "it's newer" doesn't understand the safety issue. The Pushmatic is THE SAFER PANEL even though it may look like an old dog it is definitely the better home protector.

[caddymac]

I don't think any particular brand of modern circuit breaker is "safer" than the next. If you are comparing a 20+ year old Pushmatic to a modern AFCI breaker, well, then, forget about it, the "safer" breaker will be the AFCI one.

[jillglenn]

I have an older model Pushmatic and one of the breakers has gone bad. I verified this by throwing the main breaker and then moving the previously affected circuit wire onto another breaker and everything works. The faulty breaker will not reset even when I have taken the circuot wires off of it. I undid the screw holding the breaker to the bus but still can not get the breaker out. I don't want to force it too much until I know that is required. Is there a proper way to remove the breaker (i.e. pull straigght out on it with plyers). It is the 3rd breaker down on one side of the bus. Do I have to take out the other breakers above or below the faulty one? Do I have to do anything to the breaker on the other side of the bus from the faulty one? Or is there some other trick to getting the breaker out?

[Ron Bibler]

Just found this board. I'm a Home Inspector, Calif Termite Inspector and a Thermographer.

I was inspecting a home and it had a pushmatic panel in it. my first one. and in looking for information on the panel I found this board.

I see these are like a zinsco with the exposed feeder bars:thrasher:

OUCH!

[cnlee]

Must release the locking bar located at the center of the Pushmatic panel. To do that, pull and down the center bar.

Good Luck :turtle: