14/3 sharing 2 circuits...

[jat]

Hello gentleman.
My interior reno work is in progress on a 1948 home (Vancouver) and been doing alot of searching on here and DIY.com. Great info all around.
Ive extended 1 circuit now, adding a branch from an orig outlet to another outlet and then to an exterior outlet w/GFCI on a switch at an opposite wall. Been using 14/2..and all codes adhered to! That one works fine. (Now thinking..is having that ext.GFCI outlet switched OK?)
I upgraded another branch from old 2 cable ungrounded to 14/2 grounded line to power 4 outlets (instead of 3) and this too, is on a switch.
Ive been reading about having the Dining Room on a 20A circuit, but can be shared with the bathroom. Here is my concern.
1. - Looking at my breaker box, I noticed that circuit 4 and 6 are supplied by (what looks like) 14/3. Circuit 4 has a 20Amp breaker (controlling mostly lights for front of house, kitchen ceiling, 2-foyer ceiling lites and that upgraded branch servicing 4 outlets for lights). Circuit 6 has a 15Amp breaker, servicing the Dining room, kitchen exaust fan, a kitchen outlet near sink and the small bathroom opposite the kitchen wall, with a wall light, ceiling fan and heat lamp. As this is a 'guest' bath, the fan and heat lamp are seldom used.
Is this kosher .. to have a 14/3 cable split for 2 circuits using 2 different breaker amps? Seems strange, since 14/2 or 3 is 15A rated.. or does 14/3 differ from 14/2? - No.. I wouldnt think so.
2. - Another item that I will admit that I did wrong, (I didnt know then, what I know now...) was when I redid our kitchen and added another circuit for counter recepticals.. I only used 14/2 again..on 15A. Well this is not enough to run the Micro and toaster oven simulaneously...(thou not done often). Can I now run a 12/2 cable from the panel behind the base cabinets against the wall, to get behind the micro for its dedicated circuit of 20Amps? The micro is rated at 12Amps. - or is 14/2 (15amps) ample? Why is it 'required' to run 20Amps (12/2) for the micro?
...And lastly....
3. - I had talked about this once before, but dont remember, (I didnt go back to re-search) - can I add a green 12g (I have it) or 14g (if need be) wire from a grounded box to an un-grounded box (next to the grounded one, but on a diff circuit), to ground the un-grounded box?
Phew.... what a mouthful... but hope you guys can help
Regards
Jat

[Homer]

Here is my concern.
1. - Looking at my breaker box, I noticed that circuit 4 and 6 are supplied by (what looks like) 14/3. Circuit 4 has a 20Amp breaker (controlling mostly lights for front of house, kitchen ceiling, 2-foyer ceiling lites and that upgraded branch servicing 4 outlets for lights). Circuit 6 has a 15Amp breaker, servicing the Dining room, kitchen exaust fan, a kitchen outlet near sink and the small bathroom opposite the kitchen wall, with a wall light, ceiling fan and heat lamp. As this is a 'guest' bath, the fan and heat lamp are seldom used.
Is this kosher .. to have a 14/3 cable split for 2 circuits using 2 different breaker amps? Seems strange, since 14/2 or 3 is 15A rated.. or does 14/3 differ from 14/2? - No.. I wouldnt think so.
2. - Another item that I will admit that I did wrong, (I didnt know then, what I know now...) was when I redid our kitchen and added another circuit for counter recepticals.. I only used 14/2 again..on 15A. Well this is not enough to run the Micro and toaster oven simulaneously...(thou not done often). Can I now run a 12/2 cable from the panel behind the base cabinets against the wall, to get behind the micro for its dedicated circuit of 20Amps? The micro is rated at 12Amps. - or is 14/2 (15amps) ample? Why is it 'required' to run 20Amps (12/2) for the micro?
...And lastly....
3. - I had talked about this once before, but dont remember, (I didnt go back to re-search) - can I add a green 12g (I have it) or 14g (if need be) wire from a grounded box to an un-grounded box (next to the grounded one, but on a diff circuit), to ground the un-grounded box?
Phew.... what a mouthful... but hope you guys can help
Regards
Jat
To begin with you can't use a 20A breaker on #14 wire. You must replace that breaker with a 15A one.

You must also be careful of Rule 30-104(A) that states that luminaires must be on 15A circuits only. So any lighting fixtures can't be placed on circuits with 20A receptacle outlets. You can only do this in the US, not in Canada.

To clarify, are you saying that the 14/3 is connected to circuits 4 and 6? (Red wire to circuit 4's breaker and black wire to circuit 6's breaker or vice versa.) If this is what you are saying you need to confirm that there is 240V between the red and black wires to ensure that the multiwire (shared neutral) circuit is wired correctly.

In Canada the rules for counter receptacles are a bit different than in the US. You must have GFCI protected receptacles that meet either 1) or 2).

1) Multiwire split-receptacles on 15A circuits (14/3 to each receptacle so you can draw 15A from each half simultaneously).
OR
2) Duplex receptacles on 20A circuits.

So if the microwave is on the counter and not built in, any new circuit (that's not multiwire) for it needs to be 20A to be code.

You can't just add grounding conductors between boxes and be within code. You have to do it properly by replacing the ungrounded cables.

Did you say that you also extended an existing outdoor circuit into the dwelling? According to the current code, only outdoor receptacles can be on the outdoor circuit (no sharing with indoor outlets).

I hope this helps you.

Homer

[jat]

Hi Homer..
Yes this helps me out tremendously. It tells me that my wiring is really screwed up....
As this is a 1948 built home, I guess things were different then.
Holly hell!!!
How does all this New code effect Older homes? Are all the older homes needing to be re-wired..??

[QUOTE=Homer]To begin with you can't use a 20A breaker on #14 wire. You must replace that breaker with a 15A one.
...That can be done

You must also be careful of Rule 30-104(A) that states that luminaires must be on 15A circuits only. So any lighting fixtures can't be placed on circuits with 20A receptacle outlets. You can only do this in the US, not in Canada.
...That's an issue on circuit #4 (Red) currently with the 20A breaker on it- That controls the kitchen ceiling, hallway and LR luminaires (lites or outlets for lites/luminaires) ..and then theres a seperate 12/3 off #4 that feeds an Ext.outlet and luminaires. Is this contrary to..."only outdoor receptacles can be on the outdoor circuit - no sharing with indoor outlets", OR since that is a seperate 12/3 line and not sharing indoor outlets, would make #4 compliant, except that its on 20A instead of 15A breaker? That may solve that one.

To clarify, are you saying that the 14/3 is connected to circuits 4 and 6? (Red wire to circuit 4's breaker and black wire to circuit 6's breaker or vice versa.) If this is what you are saying you need to confirm that there is 240V between the red and black wires to ensure that the multiwire (shared neutral) circuit is wired correctly.
... Yes, #4 = Red, #6 = Blk - How would I test if theres 240V between the two?

In Canada the rules for counter receptacles are a bit different than in the US. You must have GFCI protected receptacles that meet either 1) or 2).

1) Multiwire split-receptacles on 15A circuits (14/3 to each receptacle so you can draw 15A from each half simultaneously).
OR
2) Duplex receptacles on 20A circuits.

So if the microwave is on the counter and not built in, any new circuit (that's not multiwire) for it needs to be 20A to be code.
...Can I run a new 12/2 cable behind wall and into back of base cabinets and along the wall under the base cabinets..then put that on a GFCI outlet for the micro?

You can't just add grounding conductors between boxes and be within code. You have to do it properly by replacing the ungrounded cables.
...That would be very difficult to do..however, that circuit (#8) must be grounded as the other outlet on that circuit is. The outlet that Is Not, is a new outlet 'T'd off the original outlet 8" below the old, to bring it closer to the counter top. I did that, so I must've screwed up the ground connection from above. I could probably get into that old box and check the connections. That old box on the wall has been covered (probably not code)

Did you say that you also extended an existing outdoor circuit into the dwelling? According to the current code, only outdoor receptacles can be on the outdoor circuit (no sharing with indoor outlets).
... Yes, I just recently did that.. but I could probably run a new seperate 14/2 to the new ext.box as the wall is still exposed. Can that ext.outlet be switched..and on a GCFI? - You know, for Christmas luminaires and lawnmower?

...Circuits #4 & #6 must be J-boxed in the attic, because #4 comes to a j-box at the front door lamp, where a seperate 14/3 cable joins there, comes down the inside wall, then out, thru conduit to service the ext.outlet and luminaires. Would that make #4 Non-Compliant, since that line is not sharing interior outlets? Since #6 controls the DR, along with the guest bath and Kit.exaust fan, is that compliant..or no - because it services the DR..along with Kit.exaust and guest bath? Isnt the DR supposed to be on a seperate line as well? With regards to #8, (where I have that 1 ungrounded box), that is only 15A running a coffeemaker and toaster = 2400watts)..though I could move one of them. - but still, 15A to run 1500 watts is close to max.
.
If Im able to run 12/2 as I'd like, partially behind wall, to inside rear of base cabinets, then I could possibly run 12/2 to the micro (dedicated) and a new line to the un-grounded box and get 20A there, and abandone the 'T'-off that I made.
Im on a 100 Amp service panel!
Phew.. lots of info here. I really do appreciate your input. Now Im concerned. This has been wired like this for more than the 20years Ive been here. Now this!!! Hell's Bells What a mess!
I do look forward to your feedback.
Many thanks
Jat

[Homer]

How does all this New code effect Older homes? Are all the older homes needing to be re-wired..??
Older homes do not need to be re-wired. If the wiring was done to code at the time it is still OK until you make changes to it or "open the walls" in a remodel.

I would focus on things that are hazards, not on things that were code in the past but aren't now.

For starters, any circuit with any stretch of #14 wire on it needs a 15A fuse or breaker.

Are you saying that circuit #4 and #6 power two multiwire circuits? One on a 14/3 cable and the other on a 12/3 cable, and these are "double lugged" (two wires under one screw)? If this is the case, the "double lugging" is not a good thing.

I wouldn't worry about outdoor outlets sharing indoor circuits if this was done in the past. Just be careful of "touching" these circuits since technically you would need to redo them if you add something to them.

To test if there's 240V between the two HOTs of the multiwire circuit you need a voltmeter. The reason I ask is that if it has been miswired in the past, it can be a hazard since the shared neutral can be overloaded. In a multiwire circuit the neutral current is the difference between the two HOT currents not the sum. If however, the two HOT wires are connected to the same bus (not 240V between them), then the neutral currents would add.

In terms of adding counter receptacles, you need to be careful here again. Technically, adding a receptacle would mean that you should bring all counter receptacles up to current code. Technically you need at least 2 circuits for the counter receptacles. Adjacent receptacles need to be on separate circuits (either multiwire 15A split or 20A).

All boxes must remain accessible. You can't hide them.

Yes, an exterior outlet can be switched and on a GFCI.

When I say that you shouldn't make changes unless you bring related items up to code, this is to satisfy the inspector. Many people make unpermitted and uninspected changes but I can't recommend that.

I would recommend that you purchase the following inexpensive book ($12) that outlines your local requirements for residential wiring in layman's terms.

British Columbia Electrical Code Simplified: Residential - ISBN: 0920312349 (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0920312349)

Homer

[jat]

Older homes do not need to be re-wired. If the wiring was done to code at the time it is still OK until you make changes to it or "open the walls" in a remodel.
...- What constitutes a 'remodel'? Im just removing old P&L and replacing with Batt, VB and drywall. Is that considered a 'remodel'?
.
Ive corrected the problem I had on a kitchen/bath circuit, by re-wiring my kitchen outlet (backed by the guest bath outlet) and got it grounded. Moved the GCFi outlet from the bath to the kitchen outlet and pig-tailed the grounds, so now all is fine at that connection.

I would focus on things that are hazards, not on things that were code in the past but aren't now.
...- Makes sense....

For starters, any circuit with any stretch of #14 wire on it needs a 15A fuse or breaker.
...- I can change that situation, by replacing the 20A with a 15A breaker.

Are you saying that circuit #4 and #6 power two multiwire circuits? One on a 14/3 cable and the other on a 12/3 cable, and these are "double lugged" (two wires under one screw)? If this is the case, the "double lugging" is not a good thing.
...- Yes..and No, It looks like #4 and #6 is sharing 14/3 at the circuit breaker. #4 is on (currently 20A) and #6 is on a 15A breaker. #4 controls an outside outlet and from there, branched off at that ext.outlet for the lamp post (red wire). Inside, controls the interior luminaires at the kitchen, foyer (2 ceiling lamps) and (3) patio lamps and an interior outlet.

I wouldn't worry about outdoor outlets sharing indoor circuits if this was done in the past. Just be careful of "touching" these circuits since technically you would need to redo them if you add something to them.
...- I only plan on re-running the exterior outlet and branch off to the lamp post given the original set-up.. Just moving the wires and connections to better suitable/reachable area. - Sounds OK !! My concern was my new addition/extention from interiour outlets to an opposite wall, then branching off to an exterior outlet controlled by a switch. That is new, but I could put that new ext.outlet (switched) on a seperate circuitl.
.
To test if there's 240V between the two HOTs of the multiwire circuit you need a voltmeter. The reason I ask is that if it has been miswired in the past, it can be a hazard since the shared neutral can be overloaded. In a multiwire circuit the neutral current is the difference between the two HOT currents not the sum. If however, the two HOT wires are connected to the same bus (not 240V between them), then the neutral currents would add.

In terms of adding counter receptacles, you need to be careful here again. Technically, adding a receptacle would mean that you should bring all counter receptacles up to current code. Technically you need at least 2 circuits for the counter receptacles. Adjacent receptacles need to be on separate circuits (either multiwire 15A split or 20A).
..- I can obtain this, by running a new 12/2 cable partially thru the wall, then down and behind the base cabinets, which are mounted to the wall, and then bring that 12/2 up to an adaquet place to put a receptical to power 20A for the Micro (a new circuit) and another new circuit, to supply an existing outlet for other counter-top appliance? That is what I want to achieve. If acceptable, thats my goal. - Those lines will not be disturbed or hampered my human hands. Out of the way. So that will work.

All boxes must remain accessible. You can't hide them.
- Got that.- . If I can run my 12/2 the way I previously described, I can accomodate that part of the 'rule'. What do you think? OK!.

Yes, an exterior outlet can be switched and on a GFCI.
- Good - that solves that.

When I say that you shouldn't make changes unless you bring related items up to code, this is to satisfy the inspector. Many people make unpermitted and uninspected changes but I can't recommend that.
...- I do not plan on having this inspected. If I can do what I want to do, and be safe in doing so, I dont see the need for an inspector. Im fairly confident in what I am doing....with your guidance..of course.

I would recommend that you purchase the following inexpensive book ($12) that outlines your local requirements for residential wiring in layman's terms.

British Columbia Electrical Code Simplified: Residential - ISBN: 0920312349 (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0920312349)

Homer
.
Ive check that book out. Will be picking up a copy shortly. 'Thou that is from 2002, the next issue isnt due until 2006. So all of that should be compliant.. .. Great for a home-owner..
Thanks very much Homer, for your info.
Jat

[Homer]

Hi Jat,

You asked "What constitutes a remodel"? That is one of those subjective things.

In Canada, I would only really worry about a kitchen remodel because kitchen requirements have changed a lot since that house was built. In contrast, the only change in bathroom requirements is for GFI protection of receptacles(easy to meet). A bathroom remodel in the US has more consequences.

So if you can get two 20A circuits to your kitchen counter and space out the receptacles according to the code, then you'd be in good shape. Remember that adjacent receptacles must be on separate circuits. All receptacles must be GFCI protected and must be rated for 20A.

Don't forget that in Canada you must have 15A receptacles on 15A circuits only and 20A receptacles on 20A circuits only. This is different than US NEC rules.

Your new outdoor receptacle should be on a circuit with only outdoor receptacles.

I think that you have a good idea of where you're going, and reading that book will give you some guidance also.

Just remember that any cable runs must not be done where they are subject to physical damage.

Also, be careful of transitions from "in the wall". You can't just poke the cable through the drywall. I'm not exactly sure how you're proposing to feed those counter receptacles (partially in the wall??).

GL2U

Homer

[jat]

Hi Homer.
Thanks again for your feedback. Much appreciated.
Yes, I have a good idea of whats going on now, and there a many challanges ahead to get 'this old house' up to snuff.
Im in the process of try to 'fish' new lines from the panel and to where I need 3-20A new circuits.
1- for the outdoor recepticle looks to be not as difficult as the 2- for the kitchen counter appliances.
When you asked..." Also, be careful of transitions from "in the wall". You can't just poke the cable through the drywall. I'm not exactly sure how you're proposing to feed those counter receptacles (partially in the wall??)."
...What other way is there?
My plan was to try and fish 2 new 20A lines from the panel, up into the attic, across and down into (and behind) the base cabinets...continuing to the point where those cables would go back up into the wall and to their respective outlets. - Is this not acceptable? If not, then I dont see any alternative.
Now what?

[Homer]

When you asked..." Also, be careful of transitions from "in the wall". You can't just poke the cable through the drywall. I'm not exactly sure how you're proposing to feed those counter receptacles (partially in the wall??)."
...What other way is there?
My plan was to try and fish 2 new 20A lines from the panel, up into the attic, across and down into (and behind) the base cabinets...continuing to the point where those cables would go back up into the wall and to their respective outlets. - Is this not acceptable? If not, then I dont see any alternative.
Now what?
You can't poke the cable through the drywall and then run it along the surface of the wall behind the cabinets and then back into the wall. If this is not what you are proposing then forgive me.

Can't you fish the cables directly down through from the attic into the wall and into the outlet box?

Please try to clarify what you have there so we can try to make suggestions.

Homer

[jat]

You can't poke the cable through the drywall and then run it along the surface of the wall behind the cabinets and then back into the wall. If this is not what you are proposing then forgive me.
..This is what I was proposing to do. ****..(if I can say that....) Damn it all. WTF.....

Can't you fish the cables directly down through from the attic into the wall and into the outlet box?
.. I wish I could. The location is in the corner of the kitchen and I cant get my body that far over in the attic (the roof line is in the way) ..to get near the last gap in between the studds. Same for the other outlet. No attic access that far over. Roof line again..plus a skylight is in the way.

Please try to clarify what you have there so we can try to make suggestions.

Homer
.
Suggestions would be welcomed... !!
.
On an upnote, I did eliminate a buried j-box where a branch was led out of the wall, thru conduit which ran under the front step to the other side to feed an outlet then t-off to feed the lamp post. I re-ran it thru the studds, across the top of the door, to the other side, then down and out thru short conduit and LB connector, into the orig box. So that was some progress.
...Now the kitchen...geeeze........
On a related note. I noticed on/in my breaker panel that I only have 2 white connections on the 1st neutral bar, but theres room on the one behind it. I presume I can move a couple from the front to the rear. That would give me the 3 I need (or want to add) on the front one.

[Homer]

.
Suggestions would be welcomed... !!
Hi jat,

If you really need to come out of the wall and across the surface you will need an arrangement with an LB fitting or Wiremold box where the cable exits the wall and then the corresponding raceway along the surface.

Are these suggestions a possibility for you?

Homer

[jat]

Hi jat,

If you really need to come out of the wall and across the surface you will need an arrangement with an LB fitting or Wiremold box where the cable exits the wall and then the corresponding raceway along the surface.

Are these suggestions a possibility for you?

Homer
.
Under the circumstances... absolutely.
I got a copy of the 'Canada Elec Code' from the library (that was closer than a good bookstore)..and noticed 'raceways' or 'wireways' (Sec 12-1600-1614 and Sec 12-2100 respectively)..and that seems to be a possibility and most probable way of doing this. This should be available at H.D. or Rona. I guess thats the way to go! I wasnt planning on just having the wires hang there. These base cabinets are not the pre-fabbed ones. I build these from the ground up and they're attached to the walls.
Thanks again.
JaT

[jat]

..Just an update.. and some feedback again.
Homer, you mentioned.." I wouldn't worry about outdoor outlets sharing indoor circuits if this was done in the past. Just be careful of "touching" these circuits since technically you would need to redo them if you add something to them."
How specific is that?
Would rerouting the original wiring, which was down the wall and out, thru conduit (which by the way was carrying 3 seperate wires ..) then across the front step against the wall to the ext.outlet [shared by interior iluminaires], be considered "touched" and require 'redoing'... even though nothing was 'added' ..but IMO improved, as I ran the new line inside, over the door, down and out via conduit to the existing outlet..and replaced the old outlet. I would think this is better than the old way. -
No.. I havent put in a GFCI ..as I did think it would need it (as this wont be used much)..and thats the way it was originally.
Just curious...
I did run a new 20A line for my new exterior outlet (GFCI) since I didnt know that it couldnt be shared with a 15A interior luminaire line. So that problem is solved.
Now... the next task is the 2 new 20A kitchen recepticales....
anyhow...
thanks for the great info...and keeping me busy...
Jat

[Homer]

Hi Jat,

Changes to a circuit that doesn't meet current codes is one of those messy areas. In this case, sharing outdoor receptacles with indoor receptacles and/or light fixtures was OK in the past but not now. In the US under the NEC it is still considered OK.

That said, an electrician would tell a customer that he can't change it unless it's made completely code compliant to pass inspection.

You should have GFCI protection on all outdoor outlets.

Homer

[jat]

Thanks Homer.
That said, our addition (done in 1981) did not include GFCI outlets on any of the 2 Ext outlets. I have not touched them. The one original Exterior outlet (on the 'old' part of the house) that I rewired (from external conduit -TO- interior wall wiring, then out to the orig outlet) currently has only a reg recepticale. I could change that out to a GFCI outlet.. no big deal.
This modification is not/will not be inspected. We plan on living here till 'death do us part', so Im not overly concerned about what the inspectors may find to 'meet code' or not. So, if the powers that be recommend GFCI outlets on Exteriors..so be it.
That is a simple alteration.
Many thanks.
JaT
PS.. You guys are great. Super Info, insite and recommendations... Kudos to you all!!